Cost of straight 6

for all the big words. ELLIPTICAL CHAMFERED
hand picked pmsl.........

"why is the cost of these motors so high?"

Did you actualy read the parts list?
$2500 head $1500 pistons $1000 crank $1000 rods

Supose at the end of the day they say we have developed an engine that works so pay us.

The block is then the weak link. split/cracked bores and cracking along the welsh plug lines, So you are also paying for there expertise in selecting a block that is better than the average.

"is the price based on time spent and all that?"

yes

"will it make more power than if I build my 202 with same parts and a mate races HQ's so have building expert"

There is no reson a homebuilt 202 cant compete against the MER one. Its all in the skill of the builder.

If I had $10,000 spare I would buy one.

$10K for a 202 is expensive, but maybe quite worth it depending on what you would want it for. You could easily spend $5K-$6K on a 202 "as i've done once before", and not get the quality of a build like this one. I however, would rather spend that sort of money on a crate motor, if I actually had that sort of money.

Cheers!

I've never seen one. Where are they available from? What is the output? Do they use the alloy head or a cast iron? Who makes the blocks?
It's hard to imagine a mass produced engine "crate motor" with just factory machining tolerances and factory quality parts matching the type of output offered here. I'm intrigued. A "crate" 350 is only rated at 290HP.

Whoa... You may have taken me a little bit out of context there!!!.

I never said anything about crate motors being at factory tolerances or anything alike, but I'm dead certain the V8 is not going to work anywhere near as hard as the six to produce any amount of power. That particular 202 may be able to produce immense amounts of power, but surely if you're going to treat it rough, it won't last forever. Will it also put out greater amounts of torque than say a 350 chev motor? or even a 450 big block?

Not likely....... and if so, not for long!

What i'm trying to say is that the 202 motor may be great or fine or what have you but there are far better motors out there, quite obviously. I am a fan of the much loved 202, it might be just preference but to me, i'd rather spend $10K on a 350 chev or larger over the top of a 202. If only I could afford one at this point of time........

Cheers!

It ran 11s in a HB Torana drag car which would weigh about half wahat an EH weighs. In an EH I reckon it would probably run low 13s, which is still very quick for a 202.
Anyone remember Jim Roley and his Torana (and his big block Statesman)at Castereagh? It was incredibly quick, but it split blocks around the cast line at the bottom of the bore.
David

Whilst it may be a 10k 202 and probably do everything the seller states, I could never ever ever ever ever ever ever justify 10k on a 202 when at the end of the day there is no substitute for cubic inches.

For 10k i could build a very very smick 350 chev.

anyway, horses for courses i spose'.

For the parts and work in that thing, yes, it is a reasonable price.

For the people saying you could have a nice cruiser 350 SBC for that kind of money, I have a question; will the car ever handle as good? The answer is no.

I know the 202 will be wilder, less reliable and overall nastier on the street - but if you're going to put in a car like an EH or Torana it makes sense, well to me at least.

The EHs are a pretty well balanced thing in terms of weight and handling (well, mine is...), a V8 will stuff that up quick smart. For a car that sees anything more than occasional track use (like mine), the 202 makes much more sense. The better handling offered by the 6cyl would most likely more than make up for any power advantage offered by the Chev motor. You've also got to factor in the power needed to overcome the extra weight of the SBC.

So, in the world of lap times (which is what I would say this motor is aimed at, given the competition eliminator name), then yes, there is a substitute for cubic inches!

If I had the money to burn, then I'd quite happily take the 202 over a SBC.

Hot straight 6's sound way better than a V8 anyway! :P

All this 6 cyl vs V8 talk has got me thinking. How much difference is their in weight between six and V8. I'm sure it's probably in the Hpedia but at a glance I couldn't see it. If anyone knows please enlighten me. I'm curious to see how much extra wieght I've added to the front end.
Overall I'm sure I've added 200kgs or so but don't know what the balance of this is.

A friend replaced his 4.1 Six with a Windsor V8.

To his surprise and delight the car cornered better, no suspension changes made at all.

Being a Pilot he did a weight and balance and found the C of G had moved aft giving the Car reduced understeer.

i disagree also.

in t's mates instance, a heavy 4.1 six in particular in iron head form (was it iron or alloy head t?) would be marginally lighter than a windsor - if at all.

a ford whinger (lol) has a very short deck height. i can lift a complete windsor short block on my own. i weigh 65kg. im going to guess that the windsor short motor weighs around 90-100kg.

i cant lift a ford 4.1 short motor. more awkward for starters, but i reckon the weight of a short falcon crossflow six would be 50-60kg in the block, plus 25-30 odd kg for the crank then add the rods pistons cam etc i reckon youre soon talking that 90-100kg easy...

theres NO WAY in my opinion a red 6 replaced by a holden v8 will handle better...

an old holden sticker on it and all will be sorted, easy,,,,,,,,,orp

The windsor 302 engine is lighter than the holden 253/308engine from memory by about 6lbs
The windsor block has a narrower V and a shorter stroke than a clevland.

The arguements about engines and handling and changing motors all have some merit. What you do with a hot motor should be in line with the application.There is a distinct difference in what is needed for short instant HP that is required for Drag racing a car against building a really good solid powerful cruising motor for long distance travel. One example is the fact that a Chrysler 245 Hemi 6Cyl will produce a higher top speed at max revs than the Chrysler 318V8 at max revs. However the V8 is far superior off the mark.The long stroke 6 catches it at about 150K's and just keeps on winding up.
However if you want to run a V8 in an EH and make it handle well it is a matter of re-setting al the dynamics of the car. IE: Moving engine mounts, custom tail shafts later model front suspension (Cortina works well) & brakes etc etc
I have seen the 302 windsor into an EH ute actually done and done very well and the car handled a treat especially for a ute. The bloke that did it was a Tech teacher & knew his stuff.
However you need to be prepared to spend some time and money to come up with the goods.
The suggestion of the Leyland P76 (Rover) alloy V8 is not a bad suggestion either. They were a pretty good motor and could be worked up a treat. Going back to the very early 90's when Mick did his EH ute another mate Wazza did a P76 V8 into an LH Torana it was a very very quick car.
Cheers All
Duck

Found these on the interweb,
It may help out the discussion.
Engine weights (generally include all accesories and manual flywheel and clutch.)

Holden Grey Motor 379lbs
Holden 308 carby 374lbs (EDIT, FOUND ANOTHER SITE, IT SAYS 488LBS)
BOP(Buick,Olds,Pontiac) Rover alloy 320lbs (I would think P76 similar)
SB Chev iron heads 575lbs
SB Chev alloy heads 525lbs
302W iron heads 460lbs
302W alloy heads 424lbs
351W iron heads 510lbs
Red 6 cyl 382lbs (EDIT, added from info supplied by T in post below)

Don't shoot the messenger. It's on the web so it must be true.....

Using this as a guide my 355 with alloy heads should be around 448lbs. I wonder how much a 202 with blue crank and triples would weigh? Maybe 390lbs. This means I've obtained double the HP, tons more torque and much better life expectancy than a stove hot 6 cyl for only 60lbs. Only time will tell what this 60lbs does.

grey motor 5 lbs heavier than the 308? or typo?

IMHO if i was to put a 300+ hp six in an EH or any car that had no separate chassis, i would be going to the effort of doing all of the strengthening mods that would also be done for a V8 conversion whch has been stated as a reason for keeping a six.
this combo (no longer listed some one must have bought it...) would produce a decent amount of torque and might even screw the left front off the ground easier than an injected black from a VK. i would also do all other mods suited for a V8 ie brake upgrade, suspension etc. so as to ensure that it can be driven safely
im not saying that all EH's should have a V8 'tween the rails, i love the sixes too, but with that much power and torque the mods would probly be needed for rego/ engineer for where ya live and the six wouldn't be anywhere near as streetable as the 8 putting out the same amount of power for alot cheaper

my $10,000 worth :P

surprisd more than anything, not that i've done any work on greys

and the info was on the interweb so it must be right :)

Sorry for the confusion

I should have said shorter stroke than the 351 Clevland my apologies. Yes both the Windsor 302 and the Clevland 302 blocks are 90b degree V configuration.

Are we refering to the original "Windsor Ontario" Ford Motor ???? or have we confused the issue with the the later 302 Small block mfg Clevland Ohio.
I still believe the true windsor 302 was lighter than the holden 308 of the same era.
The "true" windsor motor was made in Canada. It is a much prized block because of the better quality steel in the casting.The same as the Canadian made early Chev 307 & 327 motors. From memory they were refered to as the 010 blocks.

Cheers Duck

I remember ereading that a Holden 308 weighed about 20 kg (44lbs) less than an SBC of similar vinatge.

Also, a Gen3/4 weighs near enough the same as an Ecotec V6...

These images compare identical HZ's, one with a 253 V8, the other with a 202 6.

This image shows that front of the 253 Rocker Cover aligns with the centre of the Bonnet area, halfway between the Firewall and the Radiator Mount ...

http://holdenpaedia....

This image shows that the front of the 202 Rocker Cover is well forward of the centre of the Bonnet area ...

http://holdenpaedia....

The C of G of the Car has been moved rearward in the V8 case whether the Engine weighs more, less or the same.

The 302 Ford V8 was manufactured at the Clevland engine plant prior to and after 1966.
In 1966 the main production of the 302 V8 was transfered to the Ford plant in Windsor Ontario Canada. The designation of "Windsor" stuck to all the small block 302 engine regardless of where it was made. The Clevland plant still produced some 302 small block engines after 1966. However the TRUE Windsor 302 was produced in Canada with Canadian metal.
The windsor small block had two distinct features (1)the radiator hose connected directly to the inlet manifold at the top of the engine.
(2) It ran 2 valves per pot. It did not come in a 2V & 4V set up That was the reference to the carby jets.
I have checked up on the figures I quoted regarding the weight differentiation of 6lb
It is a configuration of block, sump & heads. nothing else is attached.
Where the figure comes from I do not know. What I have been told came from a person who has had a great deal to do with 1960's & 1970's Fords.It is therefore possible their info could be incorrect.
Cheers
Duck

I am refering to the original Canadian 302 motors.

A true "Windsor 302 small block" was made in Canada.

The problem we are having is the fact that the name "Windsor" stuck to all the 302 small blocks with that particular design regardless of where they were produced.I do not wish to sound so pedantic about it but I have had it explained to me by a metallurgist to put it simply the metal used in producing both Ford & GM Chev motors in Canada in the 1960's & early 70's was the best quality in the world.
Ford produced an "Australian version" which is as you described and the clevland was dfferent as you stated.

The 302 small block we saw here in the seventies was only sold in Australia.It was never used in the US.
Cheers
Duck

Hello there,
I think you are all missing the point.
First you should start with a clean slate and decide what you really want!

What body, which engine, what brakes and how it will handle and what it will weigh!

An EH would not be my first choise, may be a hatchback UC Torana with superior steering geometry as standard, lower centre of gravity and likely to be lighter too.

I recon a Blue six, alloy head and a side mounted supercharger would go well too.

Mike

correct Campbell we have digressed somewhat.

Totally agree with Mike about the choice of the EH.
The Torana idea to me is a better way to go even with a small V8. (IE P76 alloy )
I have seen similar combination with P76 V8 & it worked real well. Handled well & went like the clappers.
Cheers

I have an EH with the standard stromberg carb and i am changing over to a 2 barrel stromberg. I rwant to use the original linkages , but the linkages on the carbs turn different ways. Does anyone know of a nice looking conversion?
Thanks Heaps Doughster

Anyone know the paint colour of a silver HR 186s air cleaner and was the fan painted also. Any info appreciated
Doughster

They now make street cast heads
And street motors they are not knife edged cranks but balanced normal street stuff compared to 10k race motor
they say 6500rpm still is fine.
It's 6k built or under 2k for block and $1300 for head
Told a decent 500holley will make 15-20hp less than webbers on there set up.
around 280hp at motor wouldn't be bad for that sort of money.