HHO tests to begin soon.

Yes, I'm pretty excited about it all. After doing my homework, I've got no doubts whatsoever that this is the best unit available.

Yes, soldering can be tricky, I note that the kits I mentioned to you come with 1 spare board to cover you in the event of a mishap like that. Precision is the key, and a steady hand. I like to use a magnifying glass when doing close in work like that.

Yes, I'll have up to 6 LPM, which should be more than enough.

I opted for the extra cell as it allows me to fit the kit to pretty much anything I like, for testing. I can run the single cell and just lock out the second via the VMU should I choose to.

Most people are getting about 1 LPM from a basic "brute force" unit, meaning an unregulated cell, which sees the cell run hot and this approach uses up a lot of power too, as you know, to get a good result you must employ a PWM to control the cell.

I don't like the idea of having to keep looking at the cells and relative equipment during the course of a drive.
Brute force units need constant monitoring.

The VMU is a computer and it does all the adjusting of the PWM and everything else by itself, either to your presets, or fully automatic, I like the fully automatic option.

Just get in and go is my motivator. Set it and forget it.

Once you get an analogue PWM soldered up, you'll still need to watch it, and adjust it accordingly. As the electrolyte level decreases, you'll need to drop the PWM in line with that.

I just like the VMU approach, it has temp gauges per cell, start up delay intervals etc, and pretty much everything you could need or want.

Watch this vid to see a brand new V2 gen in operation, remember it's new, so the output is ONLY(haha) 2 LPM as the plates need to be conditioned. Once they wear in, it'll pump 3 LPM should you want it to.
http://www.youtube.c...

Then check out the VMU, one very cool device.
http://www.youtube.c...

Regards,
Ross.

(postcode 3029)
My Shed
Email Me

Link to HHO site.
http://www.xo1ox.net...

You can see video of the Alexis V2 in operaton on the link I posted earlier to Ashley, and the VMU video link is there too.

Regards,
Ross.

(postcode 3029)
My Shed
Email Me

Nahh, other way round, it would see a lean mixture and react accordingly, as it thinks it's lean due to what the O2 sensor detects, so it richens up the mix. The reason it detects a lean exhaust is coz the HHO burns practically all the fuel in the combustion chamber.

On the later model cars, you must defeat the O2 sensor and Maf/Map sensor to counter this.

The VMU has a few functions, first it acts as a pulse width modulator(PWM) for the HHO gen production rate.

This is all that's required when used on an older car with carby set up.

For the later models which have oxygen sensors(O2) and MAF/MAP sensors, the VMU takes care of these as well.

You splice into the O2 sensor line and the Maf/Map sensor line and let the VMU control those signals as well, thus tricking the factory EMU. You can manually alter the pulse widths, or let the VMU do it automatically

That's the easy but costly way.

You can also opt to do it manually by doing what Ashley186 has done, and fit a EFIE, which is basically an analogue controller that allows you to control the O2 and Maf/Map sensor voltages accordingly.

Manual controllers are a bit hit and miss, and you need to "tune" the EFIE for the best results.

Regards,
Ross.

(postcode 3029)
My Shed
Email Me

I'll be here as usual.

See ya whenever you get here...

Regards,
Ross.

(postcode 3029)
My Shed
Email Me

The HHO will be introduced right at the opening to the venturies by two 1/4 pipes, 1 on each side. I may fan the ends down and out to spread the gas better too.

The kit itself will be situated in the RH front of the engine bay, opposite where the battery is. I'll use another battery tray as the base.

I plan on running 2 HHO feeds to the carby, with 1 flashback arrester per feed and 1 flashback arrester per cell as well. I ordered the extras as I believe safety is paramount here.

Boot install? While I've seen sites mentioning boot installs, I'd never do that in a million years, think of the consequences should there be a leak. Urmm...no thanks.

Funny you should mention the Nology leads, I got an email this morning confirming that they can make them to my required lengths, so they'll be measured up and ordered soon.

Ya reckon he'll come a knockin'?

Can't see why he could, it's all legal and clean and all the other good things.

Imagine the range on the car now, 130 ltr droptank + 6 LPM HHO, should go a loooooong way between drinks.

Regards,
Ross.

(postcode 3029)
My Shed
Email Me

Well, these actual HHO cells and the bubbler are made of an Acrylic material, which would fracture on impact, basically spraying water everywhere, and any shorting of the plates would result in a blown fuse.

The amount of actual HHO in the freespace above the electrolyte and in the feed lines is minimal as it's being drawn into the engine as it's being produced. There is no real storage of HHO being done here.

You would see a lot of distilled water containing nothing but Potassium Hydroxide being dropped in the event of an impact, so there's no danger there.

You could probably liken the event to what happens when a car battery sees an impact.

And if you did manage to see some sort of situation arise where the small amount of HHO was ignited, the flashback arresters and blow off caps would do their part to keep it all contained.

I saw a post here recently linking to a site where the designer is running the HHO into the fuel feed line, where it then mixes in the carb bowls, and I would suggest that should a catastrophe occur in that event, then yes you would literally have a bomb on your hands. A bomb with fuel involved. That would definately be the wrong way to go.

Remember, this HHO set up effectively keeps the HHO seperated from the fuel until after the butterflies, and once it's inside the manifold, the butterflies will contain any blast to a degree.

Backfires can happen in any petrol engine, so the flashback arresters are required no matter which approach is taken.

Regards,
Ross.

(postcode 3029)
My Shed
Email Me

I'm not sure which HHO unit you're referring to here.

As I've never seen that particular low cost "brute force" type of system in action in real life, I'd still expect it to save you up to 20%, given it's low output. It could do better than that, hard to know without seeing the sctual output figures. It's still a saving in any mans language, and that's what matters at the end of the day.

The twin V2 Alexis kit that I've bought should easily get me 40%+ due to the much higher output.

I've seen people claim they can get up to 40% economy increases from a high output single cell, yet I prefer to lessen that to say 30%, which I feel would be a more reasonable figure.

So given that I'll be running 2 cells that are each capable of 3 LPM output, I hope to be able to get maybe 40-50%.

I'm trying to keep my expectations within reason.

I'd be delighted with 40%, indeed who wouldn't? If I manage to achieve better than that, then even better.

The beauty of the twin cells is that I can reduce their HHO output should I not require, or need, so much volume, this will also mean running the cells at cooler temperatures as well.

If I find that 2 cells is overkill, I can always remove 1 and place that in another car, for the cost of another VMU and bubbler.

Regards,
Ross.

(postcode 3029)
My Shed
Email Me

When did you order your kit?

What date?

What kit?

Regards,
Ross.

(postcode 3029)
My Shed
Email Me

Hi Guys,
would like to put everyone straight on the 'Alexis Cell'. I purchased one of these kits 6 weeks ago. As yet the VMU has not turned up despite paying for it and delivery promised within two weeks.
The cell is quite 'crudely' made. Looks like it is manufactured in someones shed.
The 'cells' are spot welded to make square shaped series cell. Running the cell without VMU, the welds have started to corrode already.
The HHOForever guys only offer a 1 month warranty. (I now know why!).
They say 3 litres per minute, however, that is only when the cell is fully conditioned, at Temperature, and drawing 25 amps!!
Also about the VMU, it appears to just be an EFIE and PWM combined with a PWM, with a fancy display.
I would suggest to anyone considering this unit, hold off. There is bound to be something else out on the market soon that is of better quality.

Surprise surprise.....

Well ccrock , you're listed as a distributor on the "hydroxy corp" website.

Hmmmm.... I smell a rat.

I do not believe your claims.

I've got a thingmabob hanging on the shed wall that i pulled off some car once. It looks like, and i always assumed it is for a valve saver lubricant, i might try it on the car at some stage and stick a little water through it...or fill it with octane booster, lol.

"Republic of Dusty's Shed"
EMAIL
(postcode 3380)

"Don't walk away in frustration...Kick the crap out of it"

nice mate!!

i am a big fan of water injection, tho i thought the only benefits were using it in a fi application, its good to here that u can use it on any application and have good results..

as for anyone who is saying ross or crrock are trying to doop us etc etc....

IF they really wanted to, they could be advertising it and telling everyone to get a kit if they really wished, they could be saying how great it is without even really testing the product..

BUT they r not, they r TELLIN US to hold off until they test it themselves....so how the fark can u call them rats etc...i dont know how they r fealling, i hope they dont give a shyt, but its starting to make me a bit pissed, seriously, hgp1970, mate, sit down with a nice cup-a-soup, chuck on ur thinking cap, quit typing for a moment and just think about it....accusations get u knowhere...

u cant read the back of a bandaid box and think ur a farkin doctor mate...

cal
My Shed

Which was my original point exactly.

Save your money and knock up a $20 water injection setup instead of this HHO nonsense.

Well said.

Even cutting 10mph off your average speed during a weeks driving will have significant effects on fuel consumption.

Again, at the risk of sounding all College Boy...I leave it as an exercise for the reader to familiarise themselves with the speed-cubed rough rule of air resistance and cars.

I'm reminded of those TV shows where they expose a Psychic or Faith Healer or someone as a charlatan and the audience turns on the guy who revealed him! The people WANT to believe, and especially after they've bought into it all they NEED to believe. It's a human reaction to ignore bad news so they don't have to face the fact they were conned.

Happens all the time.

If I know that a $1000 kit will save me 40% of my fuel costs then I would be first in line to buy one....but it won't.

The scientific reality:

1. There is no such chemical as HHO. What you have in the common enclosed space above the cathode and anode in the type of water-electrolysis cell being talked about here is a mixture of hydrogen gas (H2) and oxygen gas (O2) in a 2:1 ratio by volume. HHO is a "new-age" buzz-word name for this mixture of gases in the context of marketing these electrolysis cells. Brown's gas: same thing.

2. Going with figures given previously it will take 25 A @ 12 V = 300 W of electrical power. That electrical load is met by the alternator when the engine is running.

For an alternator efficiency of 75% efficient that means the increased mechanical load on the alternator's input shaft is 400 W.

Assuming an engine-to-alternator drive-train efficiency of 80%, the increased mechanical load on the engine is 500 W.

The electrolysis cell's efficiency will be 50% at best. Therefore the chemical power output of the cell, i.e. contained in the hydrogen-oxygen gas mixture generated, will be 50% of the 300 W electrical energy = 150 W.

When that gas mixture is burned in an internal combustion which has an efficiency of 30% at most, 45 W of mechanical power will be generated at the engine's output shaft.

Net result: Your engine has to produce an additional 500 W of power to get a 45 W increase, i.e. there's a deficit of 455 W of extra power that has to come from somewhere. Where does it come from? You burn extra petrol or diesel to get it. These contraptions don't improve fuel consumption. They actually harm it! You can't get more power out of the system than you put in or you'd have a perpetual motion machine. Look up "Law of Conservation of Energy".

Any claims you see that producing any sort of fuel from the vehicle's engine, directly or indirectly (e.g. via the alternator and electrical system), then feeding that fuel into the engine to get more power or reduced fuel consumption are utter B.S.! That would violate the laws of physics.

Anyone who thinks they see a power gain or fuel-consumption reduction using such a device has not measured the system accurately or eliminated the other variables that influence these things, e.g. driving style, headwind, road surface texture, petrol/diesel batch variations, air temperature/density, tyre wear... the list goes on and on, which is why the only proper scientific way to evaluate the effect is with the engine on a dynamometer, measuring the fuel consumption. If you do that, believe me, you'll see a small increase in fuel consumption after fitting one of these devices.

I do mate, already. 40% of the time I could be driving the tonner sits in the garage and I take the train. In fact its more like 80% of the time.

I say this to everyone who has a go at me for driving a tonner with a 308, I say: "what is your fuel bill in the buzz box?" and invariably I use less in the 308. Go figure.

Theres no need for this discussion to get all emotional and stuff. We are all grown ups right? If the dentist tells you that you have rotten teeth, do you go down the street and ask the bartender at the pub for a second opinion?

Cal, mate, I appreciate your enthusiasm and am really enjoying reading (read LMAO) all this HHO stuff as it is intriguing but HGP1970 and zoso make some very valid points and their obvious knowledge on physics can't be overlooked. Suggesting a mechanical engineering student doesn't know the chemical composition of water is not assisting your arguement or Rosco's cause - it is merely making you appear like an uneducated teenager.

Best thing you can do mate is to back off and leave it to Rosco to do the testing and report his results here for all to see.

For the record, I too think it all to be a scam. I have done enough reading to disprove much of what is claimed BUT I am open to being proven wrong and hope for the sake of all all of our wallets that I am.

Good luck Rosco!

RB

Red Barons Hanger

"There are no answers here - they are all on the wake."
[Postcode 3713]

The internet is a research tool. I doubt you'll find anything directly cut and pasted however if you prefer I can reference for you ? I can dig out my old Chem and Physics texts if you prefer.

Happy?

For the record I have a BEng and a BSc, a Masters in IT and an MBA (although the last two aren't really relevant to this discussion).

Dear "holden Fan"
(doesn't seem to have the guts to become a member)
Yes, my qualifications are as follows;
OWSI is indeed Open Water Scuba Instructor, and as such I understand the physics of gasses.
JP is indeed Justice of the peace, and as such I had to be "qualified" by the Attourney Generals Dept.
OB is Old Bastard, a community service organisation that has the Duke Of Edinbourgh as its Patron.
Brookside Consultant is an agricultural consultant, specialising in soil science, hence, some chemistry.
AME(Eng) the one you happend to skip over, is Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (Engines)

SO, Mr Holden Fan (name withheld for fear of ridicule)
Next time you fly somewhere, eat some farm grown food, need a document witnessed, ask for assistance from a community service, or open a bottle of fizzy drink.... just think of me.
Oh, and if you want to buy an electrolyser so you can save up to rent more videos, just ask rosco, 'cause I'mm too pissed off to sell you one.

crrrock

During the electrolysis of water Hydrogen and Oxygen gas are released. If those are collected on the two electrodes in two test tubes and then released near a lit canle you will hear a big popp sound. The HHO is also called amongst other a "popping gas", which in its reaction releases quite a bit of energy. ...and if you hook an electrolysis chamber on a solar cell, then you can drive your generator to do whaever you want with it.
Also you can use you car battery to gain extra energy simply getting the petrol burning better.
Cheers All

Again, until it's completely independantly verified it's just pie in the sky hearsay.

There are also people on Youtube claiming the world is flat, aliens abducted them and that 9-11 was a government conspiracy.

Just because some bozo makes unsubstantiated claims on YouTube doesn't make it so.

And I notice NOT ONE of this snake-oil miracle hydrogen generators has EVER been independently shown to work or have a benefit.

Con, con, con, con......... lather, rinse, repeat.

I can only suggest you strap a cow to your roofrack and connect a tube from its bum to your carby because the benefits will be about the same

Dude,

Go back to High School.

Seriously.....grade 7, maybe even grade 4 these days.

2H20 (water) + energy <---> 2H2 (hydrogen gas) + O2 (oxygen gas)

And that is a balanced equation.

Come on, if this is the level of "debate" surrounding this HHO nonsense then I am completely not surprised you people are getting ripped off blind!

This is basic, basic basic stuff.... like 1 + 1 = 2.

Also it's "breaking", not "braking".

Seriously, what ARE they teaching the kids at school these days???

Sorry but i have to laugh at your terminology of O2 "clumping". While it is true that an oxygen atom can exist on its own, the 6 valence electrons filling the outer 2 p shells make the atom unstable. The atom will try to 'stick' to anything it can find with a spare electron. This is why it will always combine with another O atom where 2 of these valence electrons are shared from each atom to form 2 stable p shells (with 4 electrons in each shell). The most laughable part is that you not only want to crack water for fuel but now you are somehow assuming you need to crack oxygen as well. I suppose I just don't get it.

At least I can understand the Tee shirt folding...
.....Tim.
My Shed

Exactly, as Aardvark explains at his Web-site http://www.aardvark....

So, we await the results...