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Stud Pattern Change for HT

Stud Pattern Change for HT

Commodore Senna 16x7 wheels fitted to HT Wagon made possible by stud pattern change to commodore/HQ. Opens up the possiblities. Even Pursuit rims will bolt on.
Cheers
LMH

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HT Rim Disaster

Just because they bolt on doesn't mean they fit. HQ and Commodore are close, but not close enough. You will be putting too much strain on your wheel studs and they WILL break. Why do you think no-one else is doing it?. Do a search in HOLDENPEDIA.

Your right, of course

Yep no worries, I understand, and knew before of the 1mm difference. This only effects the front as the back has a commodore metric pattern. As I said this was done so long ago 4 years, I haven't given it much thought. Do you know if the commodore rotor will fit on, or disc and caliper.
Cheers
LMH

stud pattern change

i assume you are using HQ discs?

if so, its an easy fix, get a brake place to drill a set of blank HQ rotors to 5/120mm PCD

Thanks

Thanks for the info. Didn't know you could get blanks.
Cheers
LMH

dont assume what you havn't proven

cods wallop,ive ran similar setup in a 400bhp torana
in actual race conditions + over 120kms distance with no sign of failure whatsoever.as long as one uses the factory wheelstuds they have no worrys.there is a slight splaying of the stud hat but its very well withing tolerances,thus
the flexing of the mating surfaces will compenstate to a certain degree.

I'm assuming....

that your giving the thumbs up to run crummydog rims on a Q-Z ? If not, oops sorry but if so then expect "THIS" to happen.

JUNK IS...Something you throw out three weeks before you need it.
"Shed & sale"
EMAIL

pus

New mags look pus on old cars

also, those wheels on that

also, those wheels on that HT are a disaster.

Even if PCD is modified, what about the offset?

Even if you change the PCD to the commodore spec, won't commodore mags have a different offset?

Under-track?

With the offset of the Commodore Rims, you could end up under-track. This is a BIIIIG no-no legally.

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

IMHO its not necesary to get

IMHO there is no need to change the PCD: 1mm is next to nothing and is negligable.
[I know I'll cop some roberta flack for saying it] but, I've put some serious thought into this and my primary conclusion is that the PCD difference does not matter in the slightest. Even if your wheels are revolving at a phenominal and unachievable level, the age oldholden 'load bearing' arguement falls on its sword... sorry dave.

Holden Fan "why do you think no-one else is doing it?" - that's not entirely true... heaps of lads do it, but only the ones who know their [Naughty Pottyword].

krangle is right though in talking about the offset - this is the real issue.

To anyone who cares; my brakes have never been better since I put the new master cylinder on... the good old girlock caliper shaving hasn't affected them one bit.

OK guys, now hit me with your best shot....

Here we go again

Hi REDHot308WB. Hope you had a wonderful Chrisse and 2006 brings you happiness and prosperity, and dont hurt yourself or anybody else when your wheels fall off! I admire your stubborn nature. But no mater how many times you do things wrong they never become right. My friend you are still Wrong!
Regards.
Jack.

Ya gotta be [Naughty Pottyword]ten

Ya gotta be [Naughty Pottyword]ten me!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------
Why is common sense...Not?

350Stato's shed

Whats wrong 350stato

I just thought I would try and be nice so as to change his point of view. Didn't work but.
As you say Why is common sense...Not?
Regards.
Jack.

Yep, Just can't help some

Yep, Just can't help some people, Was not refering to you Jack mac, was talkin to deadhot308WB, I just cant believe he's still goin with this and trying to convince others it's ok.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Why is common sense...Not?

350Stato's shed

350 stato

I knew you would bite as soon as he said that.You can't teach an old dog new tricks.I was just looking at your shed.The bloke [mate] that wrote off your H.Q.Is he still a mate? What a dickhead, dose he know how to drive or what? Reminds me when 3 mates used to live in a old farm house, after the RSL one night, in the mates xb [Naughty Pottyword]box, came down the driveway sideways. straight into my H.Q. while I was apassenger in the [Naughty Pottyword] box. Arrre its good to have mates.

Have not seen the f@#kin

Have not seen the f@#kin As%&#e c*!t since about a week after it happened, Never paid anything either, So I was stuck with a writen off HQ and no cash to fix anything, Aparently the the stupid @#$%^$%#$^&$&* tried to do a skid around the second last corner from home, Apparently can't drive, Was sittin in the lounge watchen the idiot box when I heard it but did'nt even give it a thought it was my car, then heard stupid tryin to back out of the fence and said to my mate there at the time "Listen to this f@#kwit up the road tryin ta do a skid" Then walked outside for a cig, looked up and choked, Your mates sound about as smart as mine, AArrrrrrrhhhhh!!!!!......Bugger.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Why is common sense...Not?

350Stato's shed

Its only 0.7mm difference!

The imperial to metric conversion is only 0.7mm difference. Given that alloy wheel's stud holes after bring pulled on and off cars and just due to everyday driving would slightly wear, I think the 0.7mm would be taken up in that alone. I still don't condone the act of metric rims on imperial studs but there is some grey area there. I have heard of studs snapping from stress and wheels falling off from this though so good luck to whoever does it.

You get that...

on those big jobs

Now here is someone who

Now here is someone who clearly has brains :)))))))) big als knows what he's talking about and has the most valid of points when he talks about the slack being taken up... this is precisely why i agree with him. i've tried outlining it to some people but they refuse to listen. "holdenpedia says this, and holdenpedia says that" "the guy down at bob jane says this and that". point is they are a tight fit, and a tight fit is a tight fit, period.

Like I keep saying the real issue is the offset, PCD dont count for sh8!

REDHot 308WB

Please read my comment to Knuckles. Hope it helps you to understand.
Regards.
Jack.

thank you jack,xmas and new

thank you jack,
xmas and new year were great- nice and quiet.

That's your opionion, and you are more than entitled to it :) in fact it seems to be the opinion of most of the people 'round here, so I wont bombard anyone with my precious judgements.
But i will say this, although holdenpedia and many reputable mechanics and professionals in the wheel industry will tell you that for your own safety and that of others you should avoid doing it, i simply offer my opinion that in essence is: 1mm or thereabouts, is negligible and in fact is so insignificant as to represent no meaningful difference.

Sweet, Tim :)

Sweet, I'll have to remember

Sweet, I'll have to remember that 1mm is f@#kall when ya getting ya motor rebuilt, Crank shaft is only out a mm and piston deck hight is only 1mm to high but it's all good... Whats a mm ay
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Why is common sense...Not?

350Stato's shed

1mm is bugger all to worry

1mm is bugger all to worry about - I program my CNC machines with GPS co-ords. +/- 1m is good enough for me.

hk What are you making?

I can also program CNC machines, and have made couplings for the Loy Yang power station. There specifications on 600mm Diameter coupling PCD's with approx 64 holes. The PCD specs had to be within .002 thousands of an inch overall. I could not achieve this on a CNC. Between each coupling we had to put, flexible membranes to compensate for any inaccuracy. Your statement of 1mm is bugger all to worry about! Is very dangerous to some on this forum. Please take care. And think about the implications of your posts!
Regards.
Jack.

HK's 1 metre

I had to read HK's post 2 or 3 times to make sure he was joking...

HK, We'll have a whip 'round and see if we can get enough money for you to have an operation to have your tongue removed from your cheek! :-)

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

He sucked me in

Hi dave.
I bet he wishes I was a Cod!
Regards.
Jack.

Got me to, I only work on

Got me to, I only work on conventional machines and can get better tolerances than that. Was thinking "typicle CNC machinist, cant do bugger all." hehe
But yeah, Commodore wheels on Hq hubs isnt good engineering practice!

Steve

Don't try this at home,

Don't try this at home, kids. ;)

Smartarse HK

I am still trying to get your hook out of my right Gill!
I will get over it. I have very big ears, and a long nose!
Regards.
Jack.

sorry Jack. Using GPS

sorry Jack. Using GPS co-ords is NOT a good idea... M30! M30!

HK GPS

It ***COULD*** be...depending on the size of your CNC machine....

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

which reminds me of the time

which reminds me of the time the UWA sheep shearing robot (Shear Magic) was first being demonstrated to some of the backers. The demo was going well until a bug that instructed the comb to return home. (0,0) was at the _centre_ of the sheep. It was a little messy.

ref:

ref: Link to Autoshear

We built a replica which is on display at the Shearers Hall of Fame in Hay.

Lamb Roast?

Was there a BBQ nearby?

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

nobody had an appetite

nobody had an appetite funnily enough

Bon Appetite?

I notice there are no pics (and probably no mention, but I didn't read it all) of this incident on that Website!

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

No, no documentation - not

No, no documentation - not publically anyway!
Seriously though, the head of the project - A/Prof James Trevelyan is a genius engineer and a tireless humanitarian, respected worldwide for his work in unexploded ordinance

Ordinance

Distributing it or removing it? (now I need that tonguecheekerectomy!)

ANYBODY who deliberately goes out to find old, unstable, unexploded bombs and removes or tries to remove them is a gen-you-whine hero (or heroine) in my book...

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

Qute, google trevelyan

Qute, google trevelyan demining (no quotes) his work is mainly landmines in 3rd world / middle east

you can lead a horse to water....

you can lead a horse to water....and if it don't drink...Shoot the F#$@@^ thing!!! then buy another one

i cannot and will not see the point that no person in there "sane" mind would continue to advise against something if it was safe to do so.......

nah...f**k it...fit the f*****n commie wheels and be done with it...they look shythouse anyway

ooh...thanks mr mod ;)

"Don't be unaustralian...buy an Oldholden.com sticker"

Commodore wheels on HQ

you make a good point, i have never seen a set of wheels on a commodore that would look good on an HQ or whatever that isnt available in HQ pattern already

Ponys

A horse that doesn't drink is always good ;)

Centrebore is critical for strength

All this talk about fractions of a mm is all fine and well, but in addition to the offset problem, you also have the problem that on old holdens the "centrebore" of the mags is critical - this is the hole which fits over the hub. The centrebore is where the wheels or mags take all of the weight and force of the car. The studs just hold the wheels on but shouldn't take any weight - indeed, I think they are not designed/engineered to take the weight - that's what the hub/centrebore interface is for.

If the commie wheels do not have the exact centrebore, then you will be putting all of the weight and force of the car on the studs (which weren't designed for this) and to make matters worse, simply tightening the wheels up will put more stress on the studs (you're trying for force em in a ~1mm bigger circle).

All of this sounds like a recipe for disaster. If you do this, the only issue is how long it will be before it fails.

centrebore

a very very good point i must admit.

Centre Bore again

It's interesting that many after market wheels sold through major tyre shops have large Centre bores and quite often don't touch the hub centre. Commodore, Lancer, etc, many are multifit too meaning 8 stud holes. Wheel studs take all the strain, centre bore is larger than the cars hub centre. Not only that, but some Alloy aussie made wheels made for HQ etc had a large Centre bore that cleared the cars hub centre. I'm not saying your wrong by any means, but, It's been my observation this has been an issue with Aftermarket wheels, since after market wheels first appeared. Even when they were listed specifically for a certain vehicle.

gts rims

I have H.Q. gts rims on my H.Z. The front wheels don't connect with a centre bone just the studs.Are you saying this is dangeruos. Its been like this for ten years no problems so far.

Mags

Hi Krangle

As much as i am against the commodore on HQ issue, and belive a HQ wheel is correct for a HQ only

I have to agree to what you say about the wheel hub.

To may times you see incorect wheels on cars, they bolt on, but are not supported by the hub.

the include ford to 5 stud toyota, Ford late/ big hub XB/XC to EL on Valiant VH-VM, Valiant VH-CM on mitsubishi express 5 stud, Big hub ford or VH on Val, on small hub XR-XA early XB, Certain volvo to HQ, some BMW to commodore,

And the worst offenders is 4 stud japanese, almost every day in traffic i see mag wheels on jap cars, not all are young owners or fancy wheels, many are plain car by normal people, or elderly or just transport for a chick but the wheels are famous brand, they bolt on but some have almost a 1/2 to 3/4 gap from the wheel hub to the centre of the mag.

These are supported by the wheel nits only and as such on heavy breaking or cornering its the nuts that hold it on and the studs are taking all G-force, they will fatigue and let go one day. Even the slow and granny cars. normally the hub is a close fit with the rim, actually on a car that has not had front wnd work or even better had 10 years on the rear brake pads ( it happens 1 get 3 years and i so 450k's a week , dad has done 105,000 on his EA facon and changed the rear pads only 1 or 2 times) The rims tend to be jamed on by dirt and grime or rusted on.

Come one hands up, who has never gone to a wrecked or helped a friend and the wheel was a bitch to take off because it has been in the same place for ages

Regards
George

Removing Wheels

Try to get the mags off a VY Commodore...even after just 10,000 K's they had the be persuaded by Mr Rubber Mallet to come off as they are a VERY tight fit on the hub.

However, the HQ - WB wheels were not necessarily that tight on the hub.

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

Gee I have set the cat amongst the pigeons

Sorry Guys, didn't mean to stir things up. I can see if it's .7 mm over all then that's .35mm error per stud. In my defense QLD Transport has crawled over and under this car, and been happy with it's braking and steering performance on the road, with them in the car. As for look, again some people won't like modern rims on an old car, I understand that, and some do. I like them, so does my wife and family. What I got sick of was choosing between Jelly bean Mags and 14x5 inch rim's. Now theres a safety issue. The offset issue is worth a mention, and HK/T/G have a more positive (in to the car, I hope) offset similar to Commodore, but HQ-WB WAY different. This is somthing I wouldn't do to HQ-WB, because as you say track would narrow by a fair bit. When I get cut off and hit the brakes, I Stop well and straight, as opposed to making a cup of tea while I wait for the car to stop on 5 inch rims. Thanks to you all for your feedback I do appreciate it, and am glad it brought up a whole host of issues, because this is what we love to do, talk Old Holdens, build Old Holdens, and drive Old Holdens.
Cheers
LMH

Don't be sorry, this is an

Don't be sorry, this is an issue that has been simmering LOL

The offset clearance adjustment can be achieved in a couple of ways-

1. fit smaller brakes.
2. fit bigger mags (e.g 16+")

The Centrebore is not without consideration however, and depending on the mag wheel fitted this may or may not be of importance.

That's just what I rekkon,
Tim.

Now whos the Pot Stirrer.. :)

you know this old debate you have fired up yet again would be great if it was over a decent set of rims, but is it really worth it over a set of globes??
____________________________________________________________________
My Shed Email Me

probly not ;) the stashio

probly not ;)
the stashio looks nice but.

i'll save up and buy myself some fully sick bbs rims and can we argue about it then?

Sounds like a plan! But they

Sounds like a plan!

But they wouldnt match the mudflaps.... :)
____________________________________________________________________
My Shed Email Me

center flange critical to wheel safety!

The center flange is critical to wheel safety,it supports the weight of the vehicle,I had an FJ sedan once (my 1st HOLDEN) with super wide front & rear rims,I bent steering arm links on a hydraulic press to clear the inner rim flanges,I still had to shim out the rim with flat washers to clear the tie rods & rubber boots & that lasted about 50KM's of road driving before a front wheel rattled off!

Center Flange

Hi Knucles.
I don't want to resart this debate again, but the center flange is not as critical, as the PCD alignment. Wheels and hubs were designed around the PCD of both being exactly the same. The studs take all the wieght and force of the vehical when tightend against the surface area of the hub. What you did putting washers behind the wheel changed the surface area grip. A big No No! The center flange was only put there to assist in lining up the wheel when changing. The PCD is critical to wheel safety. The horizontal forces take all the pressure. The vertical forces are minimal on a correct PCD alignment. Change that PCD alignment and you are putting vertical forces on the wheel studs. That they were not designed for, and in time will break! I hope this makes scense to you and RedHot308WB.
Regards.
Jack.

*looks* those wheels should

*looks* those wheels should stay on a commodore. period.
WHy dont you stick to period wheels that dont look so outta place?
Steelies with kingswood/prem/gts caps, or jellybeans/centerlines/dragways

LoveMyHolden Replies to his critics

1. It seems the general consensus that nobody likes the Commodore Senna rims on my old girl HT. Ok! Fair enough. Fact is I like them, so does the missus. So who cares, We're happy! I'm not asking anybody to put them on their own car, or even like them. The reason for the original post was just answering sombodies question. Trying to help out a fellow enthusiast with stud pattern issues.

2 Fierce debate rages over the engineering side of things PCD and Centre bore. I take on board all points made. However, I did not get full of piss one night and swap over stud patterns for fun. It was a carefully considered decision based on discussions with mechanics, engineers and QLD transport. When it was all done, inspected by QLD Transport, (these guys are fussy) and they were satisfied with the wheels, brakes, steering geometry, etc. How many of you guys that have been critical of me can say their local transport authority has crawled over their car top to bottom, and, commented on the quality of workmanship throughout the car. E.G Bucket seat conversion, Tunnel mod for 5 speed, etc.

3. I was very bored with Centrelines, JellyBeans & the like. Been looking at them on other people's cars for too many years. I wanted a simple modern 5 spoke design with good disc ventilation. I actually saw a streetmachine mag with a HT fitted with these wheels in 17 inch, and thought thats the look I wanted. Simple as that

4. The last comment of "Why dont you stick to period wheels that dont look so outta place"? . With all due respect Masterpoobar, a large portion of this website is devoted to various upgrades such as Commodore V6's and auto's into Old Holdens, Toyota Gearboxes into old Holdens, Ford 9" Diffs into old Holdens, VK Commodore injection into old Holdens, AU Falcon Fans into old Holdens, Nissan/Holden RB30 Turbo or not into old Holdens, and the list goes on and on and on. Each to their own I say, one man's wine is another mans poison.

5. We all as individuals have the right to do up our car as we see fit, putting our own individual idea's into reality. How boring if everybody restored their car dead standard, or to other peoples expectations!

Cheers
LMH

LMH's tanty, join the club :)

here here !!!! I wish i had the money for a set myself :)

Tim.

LMH Tanty

G'day REDHot308WB

I think with nearly 40 posts(shots) at my car I'm entitled to a little self defence! Besides the mob can't go me for Commie rims at the same others are shoving Commodore V6's into their EH's or whatever. Give me a break.
I will always be respectful of other peoples work and idea's no matter how low some drag it. Been a busy day for my post, hasn't it.
Thanks for your comments though
Cheers
LMH

Posting

Good on you for posting LMH.

I topped 3 pages once for trying to state the advantages of Automatics over Manuals. This done in an attempt to help someone who asked for advice.

I went as far as linking videoed testimonials, but there are ...

None so blind as those who will not see.

The pattern is clear on that one, even one guy throwing out the 5 speed manual and going back to the auto because the auto was tougher, just as I advised. Some folks just have to learn the hard way I guess. It makes little sense to ask for advice, then ignore the answer.

I soon realised that no degree of railing against my facts altered the reality of what I was saying and over time some of the antagonists actually came to agree with me.

This site is a great place to learn and an open mind is a vital component of the learning process.

Please continue to share your valuable experience with us and bear in mind that ...

An entity responds in direct proportion to its vulnerability.

i.e the guy who returns the heaviest abuse is the guy your facts unnerved the most. He realises you are right and becomes abusive in defence.

The degree of personal abuse I received in answers to my particular post is so far unrivalled, so you can see just how vulnerable were the entities.

This is not an attempt to re-open my Auto-Manual posting, so I won't be responding to or reading any answers to this.

LMH should not be abused or denegrated for sharing his experience with us.

T

Thanks T

Thankyou for your kind words T. Nice to hear from you. What you say makes sense. Don't worry, I won't let this put me off posting, but I was surprised at the direction the whole thing took. I never expected everybody to agree with me, but I did expect a higher level of discussion. Never mind, you and I will try and raise the bar.
As always a pleasure to hear from you!
Cheers
LMH

As big beau from beaurepairs

As big beau from beaurepairs said in his old adds, "Some people don't deserve tyres"
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Why is common sense...Not?

350Stato's shed

wheel pcd etc

Re ofset studs hubs this is just my observation but wb ute van tonners had the plastic commodore centre caps did not take long for them to crack as when you did up the wheel nuts they squashed in. Also the wheel flange on the axles on hz,s with discs on the rear dose not stick out of the disc it changed later on in the wb statesmans have seen up to 82 statesmans that are the same as the hz and a 84 caprice that has a bigger axel flange that sticks out of the rear disc and the wheel sits on the hub. As for the ofset is it right that if the ofset is wrong it over loads the bearings?

pooheys period pieces

yeah, but i think its okay with a Holden WB more so than an HQ in that you 'put early-late model wheels (1980 onwards) on a late-early model car' if that makes any sense? i rekkon its okay to put commy wheels on a WB being as they were doing the rounds at the same time.

HQ's prolly look better with stock wheels or over-the-top billets, but I'll keep saying it until the cows come home as it seems more and more people are listening "the PCD don't mean sh8!" I CAN sleep at night having said this in the knowledge that I've been driving around for weeks with mine on, have pulled them off several times just to inspect the safety aspect, and everything is completely fine. why would i lie?

Sweet, Tim.

Lovemywheels

Well I actually like the look of the wheels, may be a little suspesion drop?.As for off-set, with out measuring I,d say they would come close to the std. wheels, HT had a very "flat" off-set when compared to say a HJ. Check with DBA they used to do a HQ rotor with commodore stud p.c.d & centre bore, sorry I don,t have the part number as the cataloge I have only shows std. replacement, but I HAVE seen the rotors.I work in the trade & have rang DBA on a couple of tech. issues, they have been very helpful both times, they also do a nice set of calipers for measuring rotor thickness.
Cheers.Q-ball.

PS. As for late wheels on older cars, I had a set of tri-spokes on my HQ wagon once, so I,m guilty.......

"Clay is for racing on, Tar is how you get there!!"

Thanks Q-Ball

I appreciate the support. Your comments about the off set are correct as the HT does run a fairly flat offset verses HQ etc, where these wheels simply would not suit, regardless of looks. I had the centre bore taken out to HQ size so it's ok anyway. I would have lowered it but I've got a steep driveway, so not practical. Thanks again!
Cheers
LMH

Commodore Rims on the HT

If they are legal & safe then dun worry wat half of these w**** think.If 1 of the so called 'regs' on here did it to one of there rides it would be hailed as a example of workmanship & engineering.I in particular giggle with the folks putting big blowers & so forth on their 'old' cars & bag others who mod theirs.**hot308VK**Tony

LMH

We are talking about PCD!
I give up!
Jack.

It's your wagon!

Mate,
If those wheels on YOUR car do it for you, then that is all that matters.
If everyone liked the same things then this would be one hell of a boring hobby.
I think they look fine myself. Would look cool a bit lower too.

I am surprised at the variation in opinion on the centrebore/stud issue. My belief was that the centrebore took take weight and the studs are only there to hold the wheel on. Is certainly the case in other enineering applications.

my 2cents
Linesy.

Bull[Naughty Pottyword] Linsey

I give up again. Why can you bye mags with a center bore much larger than your stub.
Why won't you listen to engineering logic.
Regards.
From a bloke who has spent most of his life engineering.

I disagree jack mac

In general engineering applications the spigot will take the load. Bolts or studs are a means of attachment /retention. This is engineering logic.

This is the correct theory, I never said it was the common practice.

Why can you buy mags with a bigger centre bore? My guess is that it is easy for aftermarket manufacturerers to cater for a wider vaiety of needs with a large centre bore. They have led to this reliance on the wheel studs. Check the standard wheels, the centrebore is a neat fit not a [Naughty Pottyword] load bigger!

If you have spent a lifetime in engineering then surely you would have an appreciation for this, i remember this being fairly common learning when i went through my time. Also is something we regulary teach apprentices in our workshop.

By the way, "if you give up again" why bother arguing about it.

Linesy.

Linesy / center bore.

What you say is correct, in theory. A load bearing spigot will be an interferance fit and long enough and large enough to take the load. With the bolts and nuts clamping to two flat faces. As you say check the standard wheels. The holes are taperd (countersunk) for locating the wheel by the taperd wheelnuts. Taking all of the load off the center bore. Relying on the accuracy of the PCD. I hope you can understand this. I don't know if you have been involved with this debate in the past. This is an open forum, and some people cannot be told how life threatening it can be to attach wheels of different PCD's, and use every opportunity to try and get thier incorrect point's of view across. Your statment of the center bore taking all the weight, just added more fuel to thier argument. A lot of young inexperienced people rely on imformation given on this forum, and when that imformation is incorrect. I believe it is up to the more experienced people to point this out. I hope you understand I did not mean to be offensive.
Regards.
Jack.

Has every one forgoten that

Has every one forgoten that FX-FJ holdens and early VW's didnt have centre bores on the wheels???????? They only relied on the wheel studs to hold the wheels on. They have those wheels with the funny shape in the centre.(sorry thats the best way i could describe it)

Steve

Thank You htmonaroman

Thank you. They relied on the wheel studs and nuts on the correct PCD.
Regards.
Jack.

ht rims

at the end of the day, if your happy with what you got, what does it matter what opinions others have, every one has an opinion whether it be right or wrong. To each is his own I say. on the lighter side they look alright. Remember people will bag it regardless of what you had.

Qute on HT rims

LMH, as has been said, it is your car and you can do whatever you want to it. Many people do not agree with what I am doing to the Qute and that is their right but they don't have to live with it as I don't have to live with your choice of wheels for your HT (for the record, I am ambivalent to the style of them on your HT).

However, I must reply to your post that we condone the fitting of V6's, injection, RB30's, etc to old Holdens. Yes we do but we also counsel the person to upgrade their brakes, suspension, electrical systems, etc so the car is SAFE when it is all done.

We also condone the fitting of Commodore wheels to old Holdens IF IT IS DONE RIGHT AND THE CAR IS SAFE WHEN IT IS COMPLETED and putting Commodore rims on HQ stud patterns is clearly not right.

One or two of the respondents to this (and other) threads on this subject were actually involved in designing Holdens in the early Commodore/WB period...don't you think they just MAY know something that we aftermarket people don't?

Back in August/September, we had another long and drawn out discussion on exactly this topic. I posted an example of what can happen when Commodore PCD wheels were fitted to my mate's 'Vette "just to get it the ½ hour drive home". 'Vette's use the same PCD as HQ's.

As Rachel Hunter used to say in the ads, "It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen".

Maybe you have just been lucky up to now. I hope I'm not driving near you when your luck runs out...

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

My Reply post

Hi Qute, mate, the comment about fitting V6's or whatever to old Holdens was brought on specififcally by one comment which I highlighted in my reply. If you read cafefully I did not state that OldHolden.com condoned the fitting of late model engines etc to old cars. I merely stated that the information was there.
My whole point was over a couple of comments about why not use rims from the era of the car, which seemed a little rich considering what other modern parts were regularly being discussed fitted to old holdens.

As you could appreciate when I fitted the rims in 2001 I had not heard of oldholden.com and thus relied on the road transport authority which I thought was the right thing.
Cheers
LMH

Qute's Reply to LMH's Reply to...You get the idea!

Yeah, I read about 20 other posts between yours and when I replied to it.....got sidetracked a bit...sorry.

Later 6, V6 and V8 engines, Toyota 5 speeds and Commodore brakes don't have as great a visual impact as wheels and body mods so drivetrain modifications tend to leave the aura of your average old Holden intact whereas visual changes don't, I suppose.

I feel very strongly about this subject (as it can affect MY safety on the road even though it is your car) and I must admit that I refrained from posting in it for as long as I could (mainly due to the other thread about 3 or 4 months ago).

If it is properly engineered, then I don't have a problem with putting Commode wheels on earlier model Holdens.

However, I also feel strongly that we MUST post rebuttals to posts that we believe give incorrect information. Not just for the current group of readers/contributers, but also for the young, impressionable and inexperienced who read that thread in 2 days or 2 months or 2 years or 2 decades time and reads that he CAN put Quad Turbos on a 454 and bolt that into his EH with 23 x 8 Commodore wheels and original 4 wheel drums and all he has to do is tack-weld a Nismazoyota rack and pinion steering part into his car and all will be OK.....It won't.

Yes, that is a HUUUUUUGE exaggeration (and is VERY wrong and untruthful...DO NOT DO THE ABOVE ANYWHERE, NOT EVEN AWAY FROM HOME!) but it is simply to illustrate my point.

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

Quote by Qute

Quote by Qute
*..... he CAN put Quad Turbos on a 454 and bolt that into his EH with 23 x 8 Commodore wheels and original 4 wheel drums and all he has to do is tack-weld a Nismazoyota rack and pinion steering part into his car and all will be OK.....It won't.*

So thats what youve been building heh? Stop copying me! :-) At least mine cuts the grass - bet yours dosent.....( automated performanced enhanced sheep dont count)

Streetneat - Andrew....

(Click Here to view the world of streetneat)

Qute to Streetneat

Hi Andrew,

Mate, you must have seen the pics of my place...it is steep and I have about 15 sq metres of lawn so having it cut lawns is not that important to me....

Mine will also rotary hoe and break rocks...mow lawns? Pfffft... :-))

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

Qute

Didnt yours attempt a bit of house demolition as well Dave? ;)

*Ducks and runs for cover to the fridge where the bourbons are*

Cheers,
Shane.
Email me
My Shed
The Perth Cruise album

Demolition Man

That was taken as read Shane... :-))

Rotary Hoe, Rock Breaker, House Demolisher....Multi Functionality at it's best!

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

Qute demolition

Quote* you must have seen pictures of my place*
I was only taking pictures for educational purposes Dave! Honest!
It sounds like you left ball breaker out of the funtions list...
Pffft? you run it on Phhfftt? I thought it would be easeir to decribe it as CNG..
:-)
Cheers streetneat -Andrew
(Click Here to view the world of streetneat)

CNG

It's not compressed anymore after you hear it...

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

No worries Qute

Good morning Qute. As I mentioned back in 2001 when I did the mod I turned to QLD Transport amongst others for advice. Thankfully I now have oldholden.com to turn to. I agree with you we should try and maintain a high standard of information and be carefull what we may put into impressionable minds.
You'll be happy to know my second car is an HJ Tonner. What wheels does it have????? Good old Cheviot HotWires. No intention of changing them either.
p.s checked out your shed. You must have been pi$$ed off about that door getting damaged. Like what your doing too!

Cheers
LMH

Cool, LMH

No probs...I tend to take the path less travelled but still adhere to good engineering practice and tend to over-engineer stuff rather than under-engineer....I find it safer that way.

What I said when I bent the Stato door was waaaaaay too colourful to even appear in one of Andrew's "educational" movies...

I really, really, really wanted Mondial mags for the Qute. I found about 15 sets when I was looking but they were all Commodore stud-pattern. My second choice was Hotwires but none were to be found suitable for an HQ either... So, I ended up with the Hurricanes. I like them a LOT more now than I did when I bought them...like the VY...I like the front-end styling a lot more now than when I bought it...In the first couple of weeks of owning the VY, I almost swapped fronts with a mate who has a S2, V2 Munro as I liked his frontend more than mine and he preferred my front. I'm now glad that I kept the VY front as I prefer it to the Munro front these days....

Did you find the 'Vette story? Bugger, I just thought about it and have to go and change my underwear AGAIN! :-))

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

Who are they?

quote:
"One or two of the respondents to this (and other) threads on this subject were actually involved in designing Holdens in the early Commodore/WB period..."
____________________________________________________________________
It don't feel like Summer till yer drivin' yer Old Holden.
me shed...
Broken

Designed for the times

Can't say out loud Circlotron...I'll leave it to them to identify themselves if they want to....

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

One more thing

We are also forgetting the magical word - Insurance.

If an insurance company can get out of paying a claim it will, and it the rims are not suitable for the car they can deny your claim.

So on top of everything that has already been discussed, remember the one thing that many people on here have had problems with is getting insurance on modified cars. All it takes is for one person too many to cock things up for the rest of us.

Cheers,

Webber

Insurance issues

My insurance company are aware of this mod and every mod to the car. They also have a copy of the engineers certificate.
Cheers
LMH

streetneat on studs- and the stifiling the style police

Personally I dont really like Commie wheels on early holdens- sort of like catching gran in a bikini. By the end of the day people will do what they want and it can always be changed back again. If fitting wheels like has been fitted on the HT wagon in question becomes deemed as unacceptable as a point of fashion then others contemplating a similar move that want to fit these types of wheels will have second thoughts and possibly wont attempt it.


I'm all for being different -as my cars reflect -while attempting also being tasteful. But in my experience I found its a lot easier to respect other peoples choices as its thier car not yours. The automotive hobby we are in is full of contraversy - its what makes it interesting. Not everyone likes the cars I turn out either so I m not gunna sit back and judge others too harshly.

On my EK Van- heres a curve ball - I am running VP Commodore rear disc brakes- the Axles are HQ one tonner - shortend to fit. The hub has been machined down to fit the Commie disc. The stud pattern is obviously HQ- Wheels are Chev /Ford multi pattern Weld racing.


Now heres the wierd part thats been deemed acceptable by several engineers I eventually approached that are familar with this practice. The commodore disc fits hat style over the axle and HQ studs. Yet its a commodore stud pattern disc. Apparently as the axle stud patern is correct, the disc pattern fades into insignificance. I questioned this with an engineer friend who has been building diffs for superformance for the last few decades- and in many drag racing applications. He said the small differences had zero effect once the wheel was bolted up. We cannot move the disc on the axle at all - so apparently there is no issue there. The actual measured difference in stud patterns is .06mm. Its ONLY an issue when this is bolting a wheel on to the incorrect stud pattern as in Commie to HQ - but as the disc is sandwiched between the wheel and the axle - it cannot move once bolted up.


Engineers move in mysterious ways. But once its explained it seems to be clear...as mud...

Cheers streetneat- Andrew
(Click Here to view the world of streetneat)

clear as mud

sort of like catching gran in a bikini

EEEEEEEWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!! ;)

shed
holdenpedia
-------------------------------------------------
there are no stupid questions only stupid people

Stud pattern..Well now's my

Stud pattern..Well now's my chance to pull the pin on the hand grenade and throw it in..
All you guys fitting any aftermarket or later model wheels to your tonners are acting illegally. The tonner wheels are fully welded around the centres so that they could be rated to carry one ton.
So unless your rims are rated to one ton (or tonne) the pcd and centres are legally irrelevant.

standing back..

johnperth

OK now i'm worried

When I got my VH commie it had the original rims and tyres, yes they were stamped 1982 and I nearly lost it getting it home. There was plenty of rubber to pass a roadworthy but as hard as a rock.

Next day I took it to a well known tyre franchise (no names) and found there was not much choice in good tyres for 13 inch rims any more.

He had a set of VZ acclaim rims and tyres that came in the day before, brand new. I asked him is it . . .

• The right size
• Legal
• Safe

And got yes it’s all good for the answers. So you guys obviously know more about this than me. As my daughter travels in this car is it really . . .

• The right size
• Legal
• Safe

BEST 13 INCH TYRES

I would reccomend two brands I use of 13" tyre. One is the Goodyear Duccaro. The other is the Nankang. We use both of these on the FC's and they are excellent ( Goodyear up front and Nankang at the rear.)
Go to your local Goodyear service centre.
Cheers Streetneat- Andrew
(Click Here to view the world of streetneat)

13" commodore wheels

must be a 4cyl commodore to have 13" rims? VZ rims won't fit as early 4cyl commodores have the torana/hk stud pattern... but any wheel would be legal if they don't change the track by more than +or-1" and the rolling tyre diamater is within legal limits (not sure what that is ATM), and as johnperth very cleverly mentioned above they have any (if needed) required load ratings.
don't trust anyone who is standing in front of you thinking about your money. regardless of what ANYONE says it's still your responsibilty to make it legal. i can't see how any wheel with the wrong PCD would be legal, it flies directly in the face of the original factory engineering!
BTW if you drive someone elses car and it's not roadworthy it's still your fault too!

shed
holdenpedia
-------------------------------------------------
there are no stupid questions only stupid people

VZ rims

You’re right . . .
The factory owners’ manual says

4 cyl = 13
6 cyl / 8 cyl = 14 and 15 alloy

Checked in the shed, and the originals are 14, I guess 14 just looks so small these days. 13s must have looked really nasty.

So what I have now is 15

rwc rims

ask your state rego for the exact specs as they are the ones making the rules, or look up their website, don't know where you are but the qld transport site has a downloadable .pdf file with most of the common mods if you do a search.
you could find a dodgy rwc mechanic but that sort of defeats the purpose (especially) if it's your daughter driving it.

shed
holdenpedia
-------------------------------------------------
there are no stupid questions only stupid people

Good question, but I thought....

That's a good question, but I thought a Commodore with 13" Rims had the Torana stud pattern. This things a 4cyl right? How could VZ rims even bolt on?

it's a six

it's a bog standard blue 202 with trimatic. Checked the numbers and it was built with that. checked the log book and numbers match.

VZ onto VH

All 6 and V8 Commodores use the same stud pattern. However, from either VT2 or VX to VZ, Holden increased the centrebore diameter.

As 68HK said, whether they are legal or not can depend on what State you are in....stupid, I know, but true.

I'd just like to correct one of the points above...the track must (generally) be within the range of original to 25mm (1 inch) over-track. Under-track wheels are VERY, VERY illegal and can be dangerous as this can change the handling of the car in emergency situations quite markedly.

On most front drive cars, you are not allowed to change the front track from factory standard track AT ALL.

From memory, a 2" increase in track measurement (or 1 inch either side), quadruples the load on your wheel bearings and wheel-studs...and it increases exponentially from there for every extra mm of track increase. Think about it before you put very deeply dished wheels on your car.

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

awe, but they look so good with dish.

Gee mate, theres no joy with wheels lately is there. Between PCD, Centre bore, Offset, load rating and track width, I reckon that shuts alot of us down. Better drag out your old steelies LOL!
Cheers
LMH

Steelies

Just so long as we all have learned from this thread, it's all good...

Picked up an absolutely MINT original HT/HG rim today for $5 at a garage sale just down the road.

It seems a pity to put it on the boat trailer and dunk it into salt water twice each weekend for 3 or 4 months of the year...

Cheers...Dave
E-mail Me!
Qute's Shed

stud pattern

Enough with the pcd debate. You are aware that the bmw pcd and the commodore pcd are the same. Bmw have a slightly larger centre bore. But the mid eightys bmw have an offset much closer to the HQ than the commodes does. Hq has an offset of about 12mm from memory and the commodore has about 38mm, bmw 20mm. HQ pcd 4.75

Idiot

Mate ur going to wreck a $9000 car or maybe even more to put a set of commies on it to look like a big ******* hero, but its a ****. When i had my kingswood i put some Cheviot Performance Hotwires on it and they came up buet and i didnt have to worry about the wheels falling off and believe me mate when it happens you will be sorry because ur insurance wont cover it because it is neglengance. I say either get some descent looking mags for it that are the right fit because 1mm is a big problem, or put on the originals they will look just as nice

PCD Change (LX-Ford)

Reading the first post, I wouldn't have thought this post would become a flame-a-thon, but to each his own. I know I am going to catch some s#%t for my proposed mod. I have been told by a mate that I can change the pattern of my car to a ford (5x114.3) by changing to a XC disc setup on the front, and redrilling my drums to match at the back. Only thing is, I think the HQ calipers have a different mounting system to the XC ones. Does anyone have any ideas on the subject (besides telling me to stick it you-know-where)? It's nopt for the look, although that does help, its mainly a price thing. Have you seen how expensive 5x108 PCD rims are? Not to mention rare in sizes above 14! (Which is the size NO maunfacturer makes slicks for!)

hehe bring it on

what about slotting the wheels? people do slotted for val, f#@d to holden why not HQ etc to Commy and visa versa?? I've seen plenty off slotted mags F#@d to holden why not for commy? get centre bore done while getting slotted? surely?!

here comes the pain, & yes I'm ducking for cover hehehe

More fuel for the fire?

I found this pic when i was looking for ideas for my hk ute what do people think? personally i think these are way overkill and prove the point of why hk-hq should stay with the old school mags that were designed to fit them but i want to read some other peoples oppinions

http://i75.photobuck...


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