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Continous tuning problems

Hi all,

Ive got an ongoing problem of it not idling.

We have played with the jet sizes, changed power valves, played with idle mixture screws and the idle screw and it just will not idle. It fluctuates like crazy without even touching anything.
We have checked for vaccuum leaks and cant find any anywhere which is what we thought had to be the problem but we keep looking and just cant find any.
The idle will be sitting at around 1800 and you move the idle screw the SMALLEST of turns.....im talking a couple of degrees MAX and it drops to 300rpm and dies. I spent allday yesterday tearing my hair out with it and this afternoon aswell and just cant get it to play the game. Its realy given me the sh!ts to be honest. Tried disconnecting the vac advance so i could put more timing in down low and that also didnt work. Ive checked needle and seat, float is fine.
What more could it be?
Could the actual carby as a whole have a fault?
We are trying another carb this week when my mate gets one we can borrow. but does anyone have any suggestions? Absolutely anything....i'm stumpted

(No Ben I havnt had it on a dyno yet before u ask. lol)

Cheers
James

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so its the stock carb?

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WHAT? no gravy?

sorry after all that i forgot to include what carb is on it.
350 Holley.

Cheers
James

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I know Im going to get run down for saying this but. Im not a big fan of Holley carburetors on Six cylinder motors. I think there better suited for V8 enginesI know people who have had dramas before. Side draft or down draft strombergs are more reliable and are designed to suit six cylinder engines. Even weber carbys work well. That's just my opinion cheers.

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You can have any colour you like, as long as its Fowlers Ivory,

i suggest using a ww2 stromberg.

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WHAT? no gravy?

Make sure your manifold nuts are tight and the washers are parallel to the head. I had similar issues with my vk shortly after fitting a new extractor gasket years ago. The engine wouldn't idle even though I didn't change any settings. I tightened all the studs and it cured the problem.

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[:http://gallery.oldho...|Visit my Shed]

While the holley is not the best carby going around they can be made to work ok on a six and are quite basic to set up. Have you checked the power valve doesnt have a hole in it ?.This can happen if the engine has backfired at some stage and may be your problem.

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Cheers,
John.

I bought a new power vavle and it still did the same

Cheers
James

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ill go over all of them. thanks mate, was it causing a vaccuum leak or what?

Cheers
James

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Everyone i talk to has different opinions on holleys.no 2 people are the same. lol
some hate them, some love them.
Quite a few people i talk to dislike 350's on 202s inparticular. My mate who built my motor in particular sais he has never had one on there and not had problems with them. He swares by the fact that when he puts 650 DP's on them they go 1000 times better. i talked to another guy at the drags on wednesday night who has built holden 6's for 15 years and said the same thing. he said triples are the best and the next best thing for performance is a 4 barrel holley around 650cfm.
We are trialing a 750 demon on it this week that my mate is getting. I have an adaptor plate for it. And if that goes better and actually idles then i'll be getting a 650 and new manifold for it. I know your all going to say thats stupid and its way to big etc etc but im not paying for the demon carb so why not give it a go. if it runs sh!t then everyone thats told me they are to big is right, if it runs well then im cheerin. for the sake of a $30 adaptor plate im willing to find out.

But would like to get this to actually idle. i recon the carb is faulty.

Cheers
James

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Someone here, quite recently, was talking up the 390 Holley. Apparently it has small primaries and vacuum secondaries. If you decide (and find the budget) to change, it might be an option down the track :-)

HK'ing.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

I typed this out 4 times, 4 different ways, but could not word it without bagging the Holley, so I will shut my mouth.
:O)

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

lol fair enough mate, i dont care if u bag them. everyone has their own opinion on things, thats what forums are for right?

Someone else just told me about a 390 holley aswell. might be an idea.
1st things 1st is to sort out what the problem is with this current carby. no point buying a new carb only to have the same problem. We may find the problem with this and get it running realy well and have no need to get a new carb yet.

Cheers
James

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A 465 would suit you best
:o)

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

I also mentioned that to my mate aswell at first because i thought its in the middle so not to big, and not to small. and i know of another mate who is running a 465 on his 202 with similiar work to mine done to it.

Cheers
James

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Don't come whinging when that new motor blows up when your'e drag racing it.

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Is this the best you can contribute you porkchop? You are just a troll so go away and get back under that rock.

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Cheers
Keith

There might be a restriction in the idle passage? Take the mixture screw out and blow compressed air

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Thank you Keijames, i was thinking it, and you said it :)

thanks Holdenfan, i'll give that a go tomorow aswell and see. any suggestions i will be trying so keep them coming if you have any.

Cheers
James

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No problem James. You have a problem you are asking for help with and some knucklehead wants to make a smartar*e comment.

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Cheers
Keith

It's common for all these to need retensioning soon after a Gasket Replacement.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

Just went over all of them. They were surprisingly loose actually. I got about 1-1.5 full turns more on each of them.

Ill wait a little while before I start it up an annoy the neighbours again but I'm leaning towards bens idea below for the problem.

Cheers
James

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i bet the dissy has not been recurved, and to get it to run up high without pinging it is probably UNDER the factory idle timing setting. ie: RETARDED!!

a motor such as yours will likely want 15 to 20 degrees at idle. until you do this no amount of carb tuning will fix the symptoms you have.

IF THE TIMING IS NOT RIGHT IT WILL RUN POORLY AND RUN HOT AT LOW RPM.

yes people dont like holleys on red 6's but come on there have been thousands of people run them over the years without problems. dont blame the carby for a timing problem.

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It may also pay to check that the springs on the advance weights have not been stretched.
If you have a timing light you will also see evidence of the timing mark jumping around a lot at idle, if the springs are strecthed or broken, the idle speed will be dramatically effected with the large movement of untensioned weights.

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

It has around 16 at idle and 36 total timing in it.

To get the dizzy re-curved who would I take it to.

Cheers
James

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Played with timing today. now has 20 degrees at around 1000-1100 trying to get it to idle, and has 36 total. Goes alot better but still doesnt idle. thought id change jets around again with the new timing and no luck. Had a massive flat spot with 54 jets in it. goes good with 61's in it.
Also put a new fuel pump on it, cleaned out behind the mixture screws like said above and tightened all the manifold studs aswell. still no luck with it.
We are trying another carb tomorow arvo so will keep you all posted as to how we go.

Cheers
James

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What power valve do you have in it?
You need to measure your manifold vacuum at idle, divide that by half, and then use the next lowest size power valve
IE: if you have 14 inches of mercury (vacuum), then half that is 7, and the next size down in power valve is 65(6.5)

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

cheers mate i'll give that a go

Cheers
James

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If you don't know what you're doing! The main jets won't affect your idle - don't go any smaller than 61 though. If you're certain there's no vacuum leaks, it could be that the carbie base has been over-tightened previously, and is warped as a result. Check it with a straight-edge. If it's warped, you'll need to replace it. Dressing it won't help, as the whole thing will be out of whack. If it's not that, the blockage in the idle circuit, as previously suggested, is likely, from the symptoms you describe. Check your in-line fuel filter for crap, and check that the Holley fuel filter is still fitted behind the fuel inlet (many people remove them - resulting in blocked idle circuits!) The power valve could be your problem - follow John's advice on that one. A 650 double-pumper would be perfect - if your 202 can rev to 10,000 rpm! If it's closer to 6000 rpm, get a 390. A 465 would be good for 7500 rpm on your 202. I know of people running huge Holleys successfully on Holden sixes (even a 780!) but they were vacuum secondaries, and as there would not be enough air flow for the secondaries to open, they were just running on the primaries anyway. I can't imagine a 650 double pumper working, unless it's sitting on a blower, running 7 psi boost. You didn't mention if a choke is fitted? If so, what type is it, and is it connected?

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Hi Holdenfan, thak you heeps for your reply.

Most of those things have been checked, fuel filter replaced although it doesnt have the holley fuel filter you speak of.
This carb is brand new when i got it form a shop. One thing brought to my attention from another guy on a commodore group im in was that he had the same problem once and it was the return spring not being strong enough, so sometimes the accelerator returned all the way back to idle and sometimes it didnt hence the idle being all over the shot. im gonna give that a try today because i think it is a real possibility.
As for carby selection, i would have thought those smaller carbs were he go aswell, but 2 very experienced 202 people have told me otherwise. My mate who built my motor with me worked at a workshop that builds some of the best drag car motors in nsw. not naming the shop for other reasons and they did quite a few 202s there and he recons that everytime they pulled baby carbs off and put 650 or sometimes even 750DP's on them with an aussie speed manifold they pulled up to 40hp more and ran alot better on the street.
Another guy i met at the drags last week sais hes been building them for the past 15 years and said all the ones he doesnt turbo he puts 650DP's on aswell.
Me personally i realy dont know. lol but im happy to experiment. So I will definately let everyone know if the big carby works or not when we get around to doing it.
We were meant to be trialing a 750 today but he couldnt get the carb he was geting off his mate intime.

Back to my carb though, i'll let you know how i go with the springs today, hopefully its successful as im off to the drags again tonigh to hopefully better my 16.60@85mph from last week.

Cheers
James

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manual choke by the way, yes its setup but i dont use it

Cheers
James

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Take your carburettor off the vehicle, turn it upside down, set the the throttle blade so it reveals 1 - 1.5mm of the idle transfer slot. Seat the mixture screws then wind them out 1.5 turns. Your car should start and idle.
Jets do not make it idle.

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Thanks Hugh, will give it a go.

UPDATE for anyone interested
Put the new spring on and it was better, but the idle is still all over the place .

Cheers
James

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How much of the idle transfer slots were showing?

None?

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Haven't had the chance to pull it off like you said mate

An going to do it today if the rain goes away
Will let you know

Cheers
James

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I think your login is one of the best Joke Names.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

for anyone thats interested i think the timing i took out of it up top hurt my 1/4 mile times tonight. it lacked it in the top end. I ran a best of a 16.62 @83mph tonight.
Everything the whole pass was up on last weeks 16.60 accept for the half track speed and the ET and Trap speed.

Cheers
James

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Vacuum Advance is a definite Street advantage but is largely gone at Full Throttle because there is no Vacuum left to activate it.

You might consider running 2 forms of advance.

1. Vacuum Advance for the Street with 6 degrees of Static advance at Idle.

2. No Vacuum Advance with increased Static Advance at Idle for the Track.

You could also fit the Vacuum Advance Control Solenoid that was standard on HX and later and activate Vacuum Advance from a Selector Switch.

You can see the VAC (Vacuum Advance Control) Switch in this Shot ... http://holdenpaedia....

It's bolted to the Head on the Driver's Side at the Thermostat Housing.

When +12 Volts is provided, the VAC allows Vacuum to flow through it.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

Mate, what are you expecting to get out of it, I mean 16.62 is probably about right for a mild 202 manual in a Commodore isn't it? Most people have street/drag cars that aren't really that good at either thing because of the compromise. Really hot drag car = really crap street car
Smooth, practical, econimical and drivable street car = crap drag car. The more you mod the car and spend more money on it to get better times, the more you'll want another car just for a daily.

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i thought you added timing??

so what timing are you running??

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Hi Ben

What we did was with the vac advance connected we couldn't get anymore than about 6-8 degrees at idle without having huge total timing
So last week when I ran it it had about 6 at idle and. 40 total.
I was told during the week that 40 is to much total and that I need 36 total but if I did that it lost it down low big time.
What we did was disconnect the vac advance and plug them off and have it 18-20 at idle and 36 total. So it's for more down low but less up top.

Ben, what is the maximum at idle and total timing you would recommend for me to put in it without risking anything? It wasn't pinging before with 40. I'm running 98 octane fuel.

Any advice would be great.

Cheers
James

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for starters do not check anything with vac advance hooked up, you are wasting your time and creating inconsistent readings.

what did your compression ratio end up being?

what size cam was it, was pretty big wasnt it?? like 240 deg @050" IIRC???

a stock electronic dissy will still have too much "curve" in it for a performance engine. you need a shorter curve - so you can have for example 15-20 at idle, and 32-38 total

depending on your compression and cam you may want over 40 total.

dyno testing would tell you quickly, and you could have the dissy curved to suit what the combo wants. lol

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lol
nm

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Thanks for the tip, im not running vac advance at the moment at all.

Compression ratio i am unsure of.
I do know they took 60 thou off the deck height when i got it machined and it has flat tops in it if that gives u any idea.

Yea its 246@050

At the moment it has 18 at idle and 38 total.

I know a dyno tune will tell me everything i just cant afford it at the moment mate, as soon as i get some money I will be getting it straight to a dyno but id like to get it running as good as i can before hand. and the better i get it running myself with the help of people on here and advice from mates the more satisfaction i get out of driving it.

From what ive told you would I be able to put any more timing in it? or could I do damage? Its not pinging and wasnt pinging before when it had 40 in it.

Cheers
James

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I've always tuned by driving and ear.
Armed with a 9/16 ring, I drive around the block, advance it a touch, drive some more and advance it further....repeat until pinging under load. Then I back it off a smidgen and check.

Dyno (with a knowledgable operator) will always give you the best results.

Great work on your car so far. You've come along way in the last few months.

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Thanks for the good words Emu, wouldnt have happened without this website but

I always thought as long as not pinging its ok, but just want confirmation that thats correct before i put a bit more in it.
Id like to advance it a little bit more because my times from last night compared to last week showed that it was lacking power in the top end.

Found out today that when i thought i had full throttle i only had about 2/3
Check my latest post on the homepage.

All fixed now so cant wait to see if it makes a difference at the track.

Cheers
James

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if the engine exhaust or induction noise is loud be sure its not pinging ever so lightly that you cant hear,it will still do damage.

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WHAT? no gravy?

Thanks Dave,
I do listen pretty carefully for it as my car is pretty loud.
It was pinging a while back after I bumped the dizzy while playing around near it. So I backed it off.
Since then its been re timed.

Cheers
James

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