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Hi all,

I pulled my rocker cover off today and noticed this black smear of what I presume is oil over the inside of the rocker cover right above number 3 inlet valve(see pictures I have attached). The top of the pushrod and rocker for number 3 is also very discoloured(see pictures).

Could someone please shed some light on what this could be from? And if its causing any damage of sorts as i dont know what it is from.

I have attached some pictures for you to see.

Cheers
James

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Comments

No photos ?

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You can have any colour you like, as long as its Fowlers Ivory,

Sorry Gazza, just realised myself that i forgot to attach them. Theyre up now :)

Cheers
James

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Could it be a faulty lifter or the rocker needs adjustment ?

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You can have any colour you like, as long as its Fowlers Ivory,

Ok thanks, what would the black stuff be?

Cheers
James

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Ok thanks, what would the black stuff be?

Cheers
James

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James its oil, it's not unusual for oil to splash around in there. The oil has to splash around to keep the rockers lubricated..

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You can have any colour you like, as long as its Fowlers Ivory,

Ok no worries, i just wanted to check it wasnt going to cause a problem because it looked odd just having it on number 3 inlet.

Cheers
James

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I would be a little concerned about what looks to be heat stress on the upper 20mm of the pushrod and the rocker arm which is only visible on this rocker whilst the others look fine.

The black staining could be from the oil boiling/burning from excessive heat.

Maybe check that this pushrod is the same length as all the others, or failing that, check that this pushrod or valve spring is not binding at maximum lobe lift.

Just my two cents....

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That does seem odd, friction is present between the push rod and the rocker arm which does generate heat. Can you here any tapped noise ?

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You can have any colour you like, as long as its Fowlers Ivory,

It looks like the end of the pushrod and the rocker has got pretty hot.
I'd start it up with the rocker cover off and be sure it's pumping oil out the pushrod. You should see it oozing and spurting out of the fine hole in the rocker arm above where the pushrod end fits.
If the rocker isn't noisy the pushrod might be blocked or restricted and only allowing a very small amount of oil through. If the rocker is running dry and getting very hot it could be burning any oil that gets on it and flicking it on the rocker cover, causing the stain.
If it looks like the pushrod is blocked take it out and get some fine wire and put it through the pushrod to clear it.
It might be worth looking for a replacement pushrod and rocker if the get noisy as the metal may have lost it's temper because of the heat.
David

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Old is good.

Couldn't it be just a simple rocker adjustment ??

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You can have any colour you like, as long as its Fowlers Ivory,

I agree it's most likely poor adjustment but wouldn't it be running like sh!t as it'd be holding the valve open all the time... he's reporting it to be running well.

Is this the same rocker that kept undoing itself as it had the stuffed lock-nut??

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Thats what I was thinking, its running fine. To be honest the best its been running since we got it running.
No this is number 3 inlet, the one that was undoing itself was number 3 exhaust. Unless that could have something to do with it?

Cheers
James

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Thanks guys, I didnt think it seemed right.
I will run it with the rocker cover off tomorow and see what its doing and also readjust the rocker incase its to tight but it doesnt feel it.
They are brand new pushrods from CROW so they SHOULD be fine, but could have a faulty one. never know.

Cheers
James

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Make sure you send some some photos of any alterations that you make make.
Cheers Gazza

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You can have any colour you like, as long as its Fowlers Ivory,

Will do Gazza, goot to know what it likely is now.

Cheers
James

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Where is the adjustment in those Rockers? They look to be pressed metal 'Ball-in-Cup' style. As in torque down the nuts and let the hydraulic lifters do their job. I can't see any posi-locks or similar. How do they adjust?

I wouldn't be driving that car too far, as you definitely have a problem there and luckily have caught it before an inevitable failure ruins all your newly rebuilt engine. I don't know enough to figure what that might be, but as suggested is it:

- Coil Bind?
- Oil restriction?
- Rocker too tight & not moving freely?
- Incorrect lash (given they are adjustable Rockers)

I'd definitely replace the push rod and rocker once you have got to the bottom of it. The fact those two parts are blue from overheating suggests some serious lack of lubrication or binding.

You need a 'Ben Simpson' or 'Nobody 123' on here to trouble shoot for you.

Good Luck

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no its not getting driven at all now I know how bad this actualy is until its fixed.
Will try all of these tomorow and hopefully get it sorted.

Cheers
James

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The Adjustment doesn't seem to be so different from that of the others around it.

GMH abandonded Steel Rocker Pivots with HQ and later. I think this is because Steel Rockers run on Alloy Pivots better than Steel Rockers on Steel Pivots and certainly worked fine with double Valve Springs. The Site has seen Steel Pivot failures of this type before.

It looks to me like the Steel Rocker Pivot has been seizing, causing the Rocker Arm and Pushrod to be overheated. The Lifter has also failed allowing Oil to flood through the Rocker instead of merely pulsing Oil through during each cycle of the Rocker.

To get out of this one you may have to back down to single Valve Springs or go to Roller Rockers.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

Thats not what I wanted to hear. Got no money at the moment. Had enough saved up to take it to a mechanic to go over it in time for rego this week. Hopefully its just something simple and I dont need roller rockers like you have said.

Will let you know how I go tomorow anyway, but yes as someone said earlier it would be good if Ben Simpson could see this thread somehow.

Cheers
James

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Ben's email address is in his posts.

Track down a recent post and email him.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

Thanks T

Cheers
James

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Hi guys, got out here early this morning

Well. I took the pushrod out and poked some wire through to clear it of any crap that may have been present. I then put it back in and reset the rocker.
After this I ran the motor with the rocker cover off and it's still not getting any oil to the rocker. All the others are covered in oil but this one and the one next to it
Dont seem to be getting lubricated at all (pictures to come later, phone won't let me upload for some reason). I then held the rocker cover over the rockers and gave it a decent few revs, took rocker cover back off again and there was oil spatter over most of the rocker cover ACCEPT for inline where this rocker would be and the rocker is still dry?
Does this mean faulty lifter? Ive reset the rocker a few times doing it looser and tighter and no matter how I set it no oil comes through.
I'll try upload a video to YouTube of it running now and will post the link here.

Let me know what you think

Cheers
James

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Yep, change out the offending lifter with one of that old engine you had out back and give it a try. Report back afterwards.

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Cool
Was just trying to get the lifter out Of the old motor just then, do I have to pull it right down or should it just come out once I pull the side plate off? It didnt want to come out when I just pulled the side plate off. Is there a trick to it?

EDIT!!! Don't worry, a bit of Holdenpaedia searching did the trick :) will let you know how I go.

Cheers
James

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You'll get it running properly due to your enthusiasm. It is admirable.

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Thanks

Can't get the lifters out of the old motor. Gonna have to buy new a new one I think but they will only come in a full set hey?

Cheers
James

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Of course you can get them out....
Obviously, you've removed all the rockers, pushrods and side-plates right? Then get a couple of flat blade screw drivers and work them around and up by crossing the screw drivers over each other and pushing against the other for grip/force. In this situation you can afford to damage one or 2 while you practice getting them out. You could also grab a pair of pliers and open them up inside the top of the lifter and work them out. They might be tough but it's not that hard once you get one out you'll know what I mean...

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Oh ok, thanks Emu
Will give it another go now and see how I go. Repco only want 9 bucks a lifter anyway so not a huge drama.

Cheers
James

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Here is links to 2 videos

http://www.youtube.c...

http://www.youtube.c...

Cheers
James

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Cut the top out of an old rocker cover so when running the engine, you can watch the goings on with minimal oil loss/mess.

TROLL

Mods, you delete this, i'm not reposting it again .. sheesh your an ass :-/

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Well the lifter came out of my new motor easily, just put a magnet
In it and it came straight out.
Should I be able to see if there is something wrong?

Cheers
James

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It has an oil feed hole on it's lower half, make sure its not blocked.

Also, make sure there is no sh!t in your block covering the oil gallery.

Did you get the lifter out of the old engine?

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

I gave it a good clean out with kero and put it back in and still had the same problem.

No I couldn't get it out. Seems well and truley stuck in there. Nothing would surprise me with that Motor the more I pull it down the more surprised I am that it actually ran. It has a thick Layer about 10mm thick on EVERYTHING internal of sh!t buildup over the years. I plan to rebuild it once everything is sorted with this motor and my car is on the road for something to do.

Cheers
James

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Stick the lifter in a small tub of engine oil so it is fully submerged. Stand it on its base and pump it on the top with the pushrod a few times until it is pumped up. Then chuck it in your engine, run it for a while (long enough to pump oil up to the rockers - a couple of minutes or so?) and report back.

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Got a new lifter, tried that and still no luck. Talk about confused. Lol.
Ran it for a few mins with no oil coming through at all.

I didn't get the chance to try the old lifter that we thought was stuffed again.

One thing I did notice after I packed it all away. I got the lifter we thought was faulty and the new one, and the new one I can compress fairly easily but the old one I can't compress at all. Does this mean it's seazed? Or maybe the original ones
I got were Stronger or something.(just a wild guess) ill pull another lifter out
Tomorow and see if it's realy hard to compress aswell or not.

Any more suggestions?

Cheers
James

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Make sure the Block has an Hole in it to feed Oil to the Lifter ... http://holdenpaedia....

Empty Lifters are easy to compress. Full Lifters are very hard to compress.
A full Lifter would compress if you placed it in a Vise, with some wood to protect it, and slowly wind the Jaws closed.

It will take a few minutes of slow Winding to gently compress the Plunger.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

Thanks T. I'm pretty sure it has a hole in it otherwise there would be no oil behind the sideplates at all and there wouldnt be any oil getting to the rockers whatsoever.

And i'm 99% sure this problem has only just come up yesterday as i'm sure the last time i pulled the rocker cover off there wasnt any marks on the pushrods. Well atleast i didnt notice it anyway.

I'll double check and triple check absolutely everything tomorow. I'm actually realy scared at the moment that I'm gonna have to pull the motor out and strip it down if we cant get it sorted incase there is a blockage down further. Which would realy sh!t me.

Cheers
James

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"I'm pretty sure it has a hole in it otherwise there would be no oil behind the sideplates at all and there wouldnt be any oil getting to the rockers whatsoever."

Each Lifter is fed Oil from its own Hole in the Block. Oil then flows up to its Rocker. Oil then gets behind the Sideplates by draining down from the Rockers.

A very small amount of Oil spills from between the Lifter and the Block and from between the Lifter and its Plunger.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

oh ok, is the hole actually inside the slot the lifter sits in?

Cheers
James

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The Hole in this Lifter is fed by an Hole in the Block ... http://holdenpaedia....

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

Ok no worries, now that i've put a new lifter in it, all it can be now is a blockage in that hole in the block isnt it?

Cheers
James

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if you install an Empty Lifter it can take some minutes before Oil will flow across the Rocker.

That's why it's best to fill the Rocker Arm with Oil before a Start to make sure the Rocker gets enough Oil until the Lifter primes.

It's best to flood the Lifter before installing it to minimize the prime time.

This Video shows the correct amount of Oil flowing across each Rocker ... http://www.youtube.c...

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

"all it can be now is a blockage in that hole in the block isnt it?"

It seems so.

Your early Shot (from when you had only done short runs) shows the Rocker is dry ... http://holdenpaedia.... so the problem has been there from the outset.

Make sure the Rocker Arm has an Hole at the Top of the Pushrod to allow the Oil to travel from the Pushrod into the Rocker.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

Rocker Oil Hole ... http://holdenpaedia....

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

As above (way above about 15 posts - lol) make sure this hole is blocked or caked over with sh!t....

And with your new lifter, do the pump up trick in the tub of oil I outlined above and then install it...

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Thanks guys i probably didnt have it running long enough then.

I'll do the pump up trick you outlined earlier and while the lifter is out of the car i'll check that hole.

(Just a query...How can a newly rebuilt motor have any [Naughty Pottyword] in the oil galleries? I got it acid bathed before I rebuilt it)

Cheers
James

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"(Just a query...How can a newly rebuilt motor have any [Naughty Pottyword] in the oil galleries? I got it acid bathed before I rebuilt it)"

That's why I posted up the number one cause of Holden V8 Cam Lobe Failures ... there was a failure during the Block casting process.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

The failure was the Holden V8, period!

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A bit of gasket cork, thread sealant, snot, dim sims your mate was eating during assembly....anything.

Get something to jam in there and make sure....

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Lol no dim sims there.

I get ya now but, never real thought of it that way.

Yea the pushrod has a hole through it, and the rocker arm has a hole in it.

Cheers
James

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Update, pictures and link to video coming soon.

Cheers
James

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Update,

Well I took that new lifter back out again today and it was hard (so i presume it was primed) 1 thing that keeps telling me its not the lifter is when I pull the pushrod out, its always full of oil. (So in theory if there is oil in the pushrod the lifter must be doing its job right?) I then put it back in and ran it. While it was running I reset the rockers the way "Qute" said to do it on the H page.

I then ran the motor with the rocker cover off for 20mins at roughly 2000rpm, watching the rockers the whole time. It still didnt seem to get oil, but its weird....Some of the rockers seem to get more oil than others. Here is a link to it running. Dont know how much you can see from the video but its the best I could do:
http://www.youtube.c...

I also attached 3 more pictures to the original thread of the rockers after I shut it off.
Image...0688 is cyl 1,2
0689 is cyl 3,4 (cyl 3 inlet rocker is the one with problem)
0691 is cyl 5,6

Let me know what you think

Cheers
James

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"1 thing that keeps telling me its not the lifter is when I pull the pushrod out, its always full of oil. "

Oil is getting through to the troubled Rocker, but not enough of it. The ends of each Pushrod must make a good Seal at the Lifter end and the Rocker End. Oil is not being lost at the Top of the Pushrod but it may be being lost at the Lifter End.

I'd take the Side Cover off and see if Oil is being lost between the Lifter and the Pushrod.
If that's not the case, something is starving the Lifter of Oil. One cause might be the Block Hole is blocked or too small.

Are they all the same Brand of Lifter?

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

How can I tell of its being lost at the lifter with the side plate off? Will it be coming out from between the lifter and pushrod?

The original lifters were all CROW lifters
The new one I bought is a different brand but yes.

Cheers
James

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Oil may be spilling from between the Pushrod and the Lifter.
Oil may be spilling from between the Lifter and the Plunger.
Oil may be spilling from between the Lifter and the Block.

With the Sideplate off and the Engine running it will be easy to confirm.

As Ben said there may be a problem with Oil exiting the Pushrod. I've seen a Channel cut in the Rocker so that Oil can exit the Pushrod in any Position.

Oil flow Control is done inside the Lifter. There is a thin wafer of Steel at the top of the Lifter just under the Pushrod Seat that flaps up and down each time the Lifter changes position (from down to up or from up to down). A small amount of Oil is allowed to flow around the Wafer.

This Wafer may have some problem restricting the Oil flow or be of the wrong design.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

I'll have a look at this just to double check it's all ok. Bens idea fixed the problem but I'll check this to make sure.

Thanka for all the help T

Cheers
James

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if the rocker geometry is wrong, then the holes may not intersect to allow oil flow at the rocker/pushrod area. looking at your pic, this may well be the case.

basically if the pushrod ball is too good of a fit in the rocker socket, then the oil will not flow out. the holes should meet up at some stage of the rocker cycle.

are the pushrods 186 or 202 ones?? are they fully round on the ends?? if they are round, grind a flat area only of about .5mm to .75mm bigger diameter than the pushrod oil hole ON THE ROCKER END ONLY. this will allow some oil to escape and find its way to the rocker hole.

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They're rounded ends, and are 202 pushrods as far as I'm aware.

Will try the grinding idea now.

Cheers
James

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Ben's advice is excellent and well thought out but pay attention to his detail....

0.75mm larger than the hole size. So just a quick light tap with a bench grinder will do it. You don't want it too big or you'll piss oil down the outside of the pushrods.

Good luck. I hope this is going to fix your problem.

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Sure did. Worked very well. Thanks heeps Ben. Should I do this to every pushrod rocker that doesn't seem to be getting the right amount of oil?

Also should I put the lifter we originally thought was faulty back in and see if that works that way they are all the same brand lifters in there?

Cheers
James

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Yep, I'd go back to your brand new lifters. I'd also give all your pushrods the light tap treatment...however, I'd source a set of 186 pushrods with it done from factory as you might be taking the hardening off the pushrod making it weaker and more likely to wear??? I stand to be corrected on this but it seems possible to me.

Bravo for sticking with it and well done to Ben for coming up with the fix.

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Thanks emu will do.

Thanks everyone for all the help.

Just quickly are 186 pushrods a different length and If they are will it affect me?

Cheers
James

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James, 186 are longer by around 3mm's from memory.

Won't make a difference to you mate. Just adjust your rockers once you get it all back together (as per QUTE's work guide) and it will be all good.

Well done again on following it all through.

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Ok no worries, will get a set of them.

Going off memory now that I think of it, it might actually be a 186 head. Is there a way I can find out for sure?

Cheers
James

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It sure looks like a 186 head due to the adjustable rockers... hit the 'pedia mate and it'll clear it up.

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Yea thats what made me think it was a 186 head when T told me about the rockers in a previous post.

Thanks again for all the help.

Cheers
James

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