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EH ignition circuit issue

published by 64_EH on Sat, 09/03/2019 - 20:24
Model: 
EH
Topic: 
Modifications
Engine: 
202
Section: 
Wiring

Hi All,
Any feedback is welcome.
A quick run down on my car:
Red 202 in a EH special sedan.
Electronic ignition/coil. (Resistance wire has been spliced to the ignition wire just behind the ignition switch so it should be Getting constant 12V)
Battery is mounted in the boot. (Large gauge welding cable to the starter motor)

The issue:
The engine cranks but won’t start.
Just as a test, Running a wire direct from the battery positive to the coil+, and it will start.
Yes it’s getting 12volts (maybe more) direct from the battery, but after starting it once using the
wire direct from the battery, it will then start as normal each time, after that external wire is disconnected and removed.

Could something as simple as spark plug gap be a cause?
They are gapped at 1.4mm.
I read somewhere electronic ign. spark gaps can be between 1.3 to 1.5mm.

Thanks

Comments

Submitted by T on Sat, 09/03/2019 - 22:45.

The wire you spliced to is dead under cranking.

Most people use a Relay ...

http://holdenpaedia....

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Submitted by VDO on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 08:08.

This is your problem.

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Submitted by 64_EH on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 14:54.

Thanks T. And thanks all.
The yellow circuit (for cranking)
The pink resistance circuit for run.
So pink i spliced into yellow to get constant 12 volts. (That’s what’s needed if not using a relay?)
Perhaps I’ll re gap the plugs to 1.5 and also I’ll try HEI leads.
I didn’t know there were differnt leads for HEI.
The coil is for HEI already.

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Submitted by T on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 22:03.

The yellow wire is live during cranking, the pink wire is live when the key is *on*.

If the pink and yellow become connected together, the starter will remain engaged after the key is released to*on* because the starter will be fed from the coil +ve.

A fix is to put a 1000v 10 amp diode in the circuit. The diode will allow the coil +ve to receive current under cranking, but not allow the coil current to flow to the starter in *on ...

http://holdenpaedia....

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Submitted by 64_EH on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 10:13.

I just saw this post now.
Sorry for the stupid question.
My understanding is:
The standard non HEI wiring- the yellow circuit provides 12V for cranking.
The smaller gauge pink is for ‘on’ which normally reduced it to 7V. (I.e Resistance wire)
With HEI, the goal is to increase voltage of the pink circuit (*on) to 12V also?
Would increasing the pink circuit size from the ign. switch all the way to coil+ achieve 12V without interfering with the starter like you mentioned? ( this would avoid splicing into the yellow circuit)
Sorry to be a pain in the arse but I want a good accurate understating so I can create a schematic for future reference and other users may find helpful.

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Submitted by T on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 11:28.

"My understanding is:
The standard non HEI wiring- the yellow circuit provides 12V for cranking."

You are right.

"The smaller gauge pink is for ‘on’ which normally reduced it to 7V. (I.e Resistance wire)

Correct. The pink wore is resustance wire which acts as the ballast resistpr. The HEI coil draws double the current of the standard coil and is wired with 30 amp cable
ex-factoy.

"With HEI, the goal is to increase voltage of the pink circuit (*on) to 12V also?"

Yes. The ballast resistance lowers the coil voltage to around 9v in the on position.

"Would increasing the pink circuit size from the ign. switch all the way to coil+ achieve 12V without interfering with the starter like you mentioned? ( this would avoid splicing into the yellow circuit)"

Agreed. That's what I did now that you mention it.

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Submitted by hz tonner 308 on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 12:38.

is this picture eh holden
http://ejehforum.com...
it shows the yellow connected to the resistance wire and pink as the start overide 5 minutes with the multi meter or test light will work it out, don't burn out the lamp test on the ignition switch.

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Hiding rust under body filler isn't actually repairing the car. Even harder to catch out bogmen these days as filler has metal fibres in it.

Submitted by T on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 19:30.

The wires were isolated by the ignition switch, connected under cranking.

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Submitted by 64_EH on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 19:42.

Thanks mate....I have that schematic printed as reference ! Ha
It’s handy.

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Thanks.

Submitted by 64_EH on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 16:04.

All good T.
Pink circuit wire size has been increased and it starts no worries.
Thanks!
Prior to that, I did splice it into the 12V cranking circuit which also worked no problem and the starter was not constantly engaged.
I’ll post my schematic for others members when it’s complete.

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Submitted by T on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 19:34.

Pink and yellow wires were often connected together at the coil +ve.

They were isolated inside the ignition switch on HZ and UC at least, meaning that the starter and coil +ve were only connected during cranking.

Be aware the yellow wire is rated at about 3 amps.

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Submitted by 64_EH on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 19:50.

My EH has some dodgy wiring reworks.
I guess nobody’s car wiring is exactly the same as others.
This site helps. The method I used worked on mine.
Thanks Guys.

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Submitted by 64_EH on Tue, 12/03/2019 - 09:34.

I have a new ignition switch from Rarespares and I notice it only has one ignition connection.
I guess the ‘cranking’ and ‘On’ circuits need to be double crimped to the one ignition terminal on the switch.
Also, according to another post on here, my head casting number is a 161 head.
The spark plugs you recommend (for Red 202) will still fit being a 161 head?

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Submitted by T on Tue, 12/03/2019 - 16:19.

You'll need 3/4"thread, gasket seat plugs.

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Submitted by 64_EH on Tue, 12/03/2019 - 20:47.

And these are still suitable for HEI?
I don’t suppose you know the part number?

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Submitted by T on Tue, 12/03/2019 - 16:25.

I hope the conpression ratio isn't going to be too high.

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Submitted by DR Stitch H.D on Tue, 12/03/2019 - 17:14.

I have a high comp XU1 spec'ed 161 on my 202 but we managed to keep the compression ratio to 9.75 by using 20 thou over 12cc dish tops, so as long as you are clever about it shouldn't be an issue.

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Cheers Shane

Email me
HOLDEN DOCTOR

Submitted by T on Tue, 12/03/2019 - 18:07.

Thanks.

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Submitted by 64_EH on Tue, 12/03/2019 - 20:04.

Thanks for the feedback.
The car was running this 161 & 202 combination for years without issues.
Though it was running duel fuel when I bought it.
Iv just removed all the LPG system.
Hope it’ll be okay.
It starts, idles and revs ok but that’s as far as iv gotten so far.

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Submitted by T on Tue, 12/03/2019 - 16:28.

There have been a bunch of cases of starter run on with HEI conversions.

I'll be interested to see how you make out with this switch.

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Submitted by T on Wed, 13/03/2019 - 00:07.

For a single wire coil feed, I can see this switch working.

At the moment I can't see a way of supporting
a ballasted coil without additional support.

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Submitted by T on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 05:22.

How is the battery -ve connected?

Info here ...

http://holdenpaedia....

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Submitted by 64_EH on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 14:56.

This info is great.
Thanks mate.
The battery negative is grounded in the boot only which doesn’t seem to be correct as per your schematic diagram.

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Submitted by T on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 05:26.

1.5mm will give the best return on the ignition investment.

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Submitted by Old is good on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 08:47.

Are you using the correct HEI plugs?
Bosch WR8DCY+ (1.5mm) or WR8DCX+ (1.1mm)
or
NGK BPR5ES-11 or BPR5ES-15
They will make a difference.
As said above, a relay is the best was to get a full 12 volts to coil.
Do you have a proper HEI coil? The original EH coil is no good with HEI.
Is your motor earthed to the car body?
David

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Submitted by 64_EH on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 14:59.

The plugs are just Red 202 that have been re gapped.
Thanks for this info!
Coil is HEI and the engine is grounded to chassis.

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Submitted by T on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 04:17.

These are ideal for HEI 202.

HR 9 BCY+

These are Blue 253 and 308 V8 Plugs

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Submitted by 64_EH on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 15:34.

Hey David, these plugs you mention, are they already gapped correctly or still need to be gapped ?

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Submitted by Old is good on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 18:15.

They are pre-gapped.
I find the 1.5mm plugs hard to get, so I get 1.1mm and open them to 1.5.
Plug gapping discs are about $2 from parts stores.
David

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Submitted by Old is good on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 18:18.

For 64_EH
Can someone confirm that the plugs I mentioned above are correct for his red 202?
I know they are right for early red sixes with HEI. Do 202 with HEI use the same plugs?
David

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Submitted by 64_EH on Sun, 10/03/2019 - 20:41.

Thanks David.
I’ll re gap mine to 1.5 in the meantime.
And T’s grounding strategy makes sense too.
Thanks heaps.

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Submitted by T on Mon, 11/03/2019 - 04:36.

Here ...

http://holdenpaedia....

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