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XU-2

Is there such thing as an XU-2 i am tryin to prove to my brother theres no such thing.... he recons it came out with a V8 or some [Naughty Pottyword]

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Mate i think you're both right. I think they made an "XU-2" which was a V8 incarnation of the XU-1, But it was purely a prototype, one of those things that never made it to production. probably for the same reason the GTHO died. Insurance companies cracking up and whatnot. Correct me if im wrong guys???

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XU-2 was a goer, i read an article about it in some magazine a while ago...was a v8 and was a prototype....."Don't be unaustralian...buy an Oldholden.com sticker"

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Yeah holden had LJ v8 prototypes. They were built with the help of the grey fox (the legend Harry Firth) and HDT. But they weren't offically called the XU-2. There were 3 built, one was a to be Harry Firths personal car(painted in 'strike me pink'), the other two were to live out there lives as test vechicles. As soon as the 'Supercar scare' happened they were crushed into concrete barriers and buired at Lang Lang proving ground. What a shame...

fx

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nothey werent my mate has the strike me pink car

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hi everyone who wants to know once and for all the truth about the LJ GTR XU-2 Torana. In 1973 the idea was thought to put a V8 into an LJ torana, and call it an LJ GTR XU-2. The idea was to once and for all beat the GTHO's at bathurst, because back then, for you to be able to race a car in the "supercar" series, your car had to be a production car. But to be classed as a production car, it had to sell so many copies (I can't remember how many). So that's why the XU-2 was dreamt up to start with. So GMH got to work on this "XU-2". the only specs I can remember of the car was that it had 2, 17 gallon fuel tanks, housed a 308ci, and was capable of 160mph! GMH made 2 of these cars, I can't remember the factory colours but I'm sure one was blue. the cars were then inspected by the department of transport (or what ever it was called back then) and they said no way is this coming out on our roads! with a comment like that the idea was scraped, because there is no point in running a V8 when you have to detune it so much, that the 6 cylinder would be just as quick. the cars were then striped of the "XU-2" badges, and everything else. they were then both turned into LJ GTR XU-1's, and raced at bathurst. the V8 motors out of both cars were put in to 2 HQ monara's, which were also raced at bathurst. I read all of this information in a book released by GMH on the LJ XU-1 torana. it had an article in there about this. I then seeked more proof and went on a monaro cruse with a friend, and met the co-designer of the XU-2, the man that was there to witness it all... our very own Peter Brock. he then told me the story on his words before I told him I had read this book, and he told me exactly what I have read. I hope this finally puts to rest all the minths on the V8 LJ GTR XU-2 Torana.

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Thank you so much 4 this RELEVANT information.Had an Original XU1,purchased as a garaged vehicle,from Riverstone NSW. Paid $3,000 4 a car that had sat in a garage for 9yrs in 1998.Sold it after getn a set of original hubs.and conversion 2 Avgas. VROOM! Sold 4 $17,000 in 2004. Should of waited 4 Brocks death ey? worth FORTUNE now. Thanks so much 4 aaargument settled. Knew that XU2 never ment much..Brocky should Know, ey! Lois.Nth Ryde.

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The GTRX 11 was a 202ci xu1 motor and had a slope noise 3 were built thay should of put in production .

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it was a prototype they made 4 of then with a 253 in it and a 4 speed behind it . my next door naubourgh had one he lifted the bonet it had all the ide plates from the factory ant they all matched

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8 yr old thread comes alive - again...!

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

so there is none on the road if its a prototype

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Thats right mate, pretty sure there is only one, and its in a museum somewhere. There are a multitude of the little toranas getting around with V8's tho, im sure there has been one or two try to call it an XU2
Chhers Cav

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"I'll just rub back this one more little bit"......

The XU/2 Torana was in reality a furfy.
Brock at the time raced a V8 powered LJ in a Rallye offroad class, but this was not the XU/2.
The XU/2 was in fact a leaked designation to throw off the attention to the new upcoming LH Torana which was in fact 'the' V8 Torana that was leaked.
Holden at no stage planned on putting into production a V8 Powered LJ Torana in any shape or form.
Sorry guys, do your homework, and I don't mean listening to what a mate of a mate of a long dead uncle who's cousin worked in GMH's Prototype division has secretly told joe blow.
I think I still have around here leaked photos in one of my old Wheels or Motor Manual magazines where Holden had masked the front and rear ends so spy photos couldn't reveal what they looked like.
Artists renditions weren't even close to what they expected the new LH Torana to look like hehe, altho the renditions did look a lot sportier than the factory offering.
Look into it a bit deeper guys.

Cheers, Pig (oinks308)

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oinks308

well there ya go! That does all ring a bell now, im pretty sure there is something about it in an old street machine or something ive got lying around. Pfft, reaserch!! lol
Cheers, Cav

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"I'll just rub back this one more little bit"......

well actually my info came from Australian Mucle Cars magazine.

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hi guys

sorry but i have been a xu1 follower since there release in the early seventies.

i wrote to holdens in '75 and asked about the xu2
they where produced but not released they tell me
a small number where completed with the xu2 badge.

i still have the letter.

a xu1 fan

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Really??? Could you scan it and show us...please :-)

fx

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i will have ago over the weekend

and post it on monday as i am at work now

and the letter is at home.

xu1 fan

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Great, thanx fella I can't wait to see it.

fx

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Dear XU1 Fan,Holden Made 3-GMH LJ XU2 Prototypes.And Harry Firth made the First one a Yellow LC XU1 308 Torana that Holden Copied off to make the 3-GMH XU2s.Norm Darwin who worked at the R and D Workshop where the 3-GMH XU2s were Built in 1972.Two were painted in Stike Me Pink and one in Sebring Orange and Norm Darwin said to Custom Rodder Magazine in 1981 that they were all Sold not Destroyed.And Harry Firth he named it the XU2 as he came up with the idea to put a V8 in a LC-LJ Torana,so it was Harrys Baby and Harry named it the XU2.So Norm Darwin said they were all Sold.They could be out there,Joe Felice used to Drive the Orange GMH XU2 as he was a Boss at the R and D Workshop and he could of Bought it.Is there any chance that i could get a Copy of your Letter as i am a Big XU2 Fan and Holden have never ever said that they were Destroyed Just said they will not Build any V8 XU1 Toranas.But they have never said that they Destroyed the 3-GMH XU2 Prototypes Regards XU2 Fan

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yeah, i think you may be right...as i was sitting around waiting for me hamburger and chips and i was reading wheels, or aussie muscle cars mag in the takeaway shop...i tried to snavell the copy....but couldnt...oh well..was abloody good hamburger...

"Don't be unaustralian...buy an Oldholden.com sticker"

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l remember reading that 3 v8 LJs were built for evaluation and never actually carried the name xu2 even though it kinda stuck.
now this will get yous thinking..... a friend of mine whose brother was a holden engineer in the 70s has an LH ashtray with XU2 on it l have also seen pics of LHs with XU2 decals, but in the end they went with the SLR5000 name FACT ........

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Yes FACT
I know in the old magazine I have here somewhere it stated the XU/2 tag was indeed related to the LH model, NEVER the LJ model...
It was a tag used to throw the media press off of the trail of the LH model range which were really the only model designated by Holden to be a recipient of their V8 engines.
There was one LJ built, I think by one of the better known Holden racers, but Holden, despite entertaining the conversion, played with it to remove suspicion of the totally new facelifted Torana they were about to release.
I know I have the magazine somewhere here covering the release of the spy pictures of the masked LH Torana, around 5 years ago I did a head count on my collection and back then it was over 3000 magazines and I really don't wish to browse each and every one of them looking for one article at the moment.
But as time wears on, some aficiondo of Holden History claim may make this clearer for those who still want to believe that there was almost a factory LJ V8 Torana...
The XU/2 tag was thrown around for the LH Torana, but a totally new Torana called for a new designation... The rest is History...

Cheers, Pig (oinks308)

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oinks308

Hi fellas
I am Harrys number 1 fan by a log shot, you want the truth don't ask GMH they don't now the meaning of the word truth, I purchased my first V8 Torana in 1976 when I was 17 and I have owned at least 1 till this day yep I am an old fart but I know what most don't. XU-2 first came about when Harry put the 253 in the LC GTR-XU1 but thanks to a Holden employee and would be if could be race driver Evan Green I believe his name is ,started the supercar scare and that's all GMH needed to can it. This was late 1972 buy the end of 1972 Harry had the V8 engine from his white LC GTR-XU1 in his first LH development car and the LH SL/R XU-2 was born, this LH development car is alive and well ,it was sold but not by GMH in 1975,it went from the FOX to Mr G.Heckett to me in 1986 when GMH so called lost their records,the real development car has an original holden eligal green glass windscreen that worked well in Rallys, cheating is normal for GMH.The Engine prefix is 308H&number ok iv said enough exuse my bad spelling I am from a different era

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A Couple of the other guys were pretty close. Holden was going to
produce an LJ V8 XU1 until the supercar [Naughty Pottyword] hit the fan. You,re right with the disguised LH but as far as the LJ goes get the facts right before you make out you know what your talking about.
Have your heard of Harry Firth or Australian Musclecar Magazine.

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Whateverrr... Get over it.... 'Holden Fan'

Pig (oinks308)

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oinks308

Brock may have had a v8 powered LJ somewhere... but the lj he used in the Rallye class was 'only' a six, albiet a 300hp supercharged six nicknamed 'the beast' which is legendary in itself.
XU-2 who gives a [Naughty Pottyword], I'll never own one. Just so long as they never bring out that new prototype hotpink POS and slap on a torrie badge!

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peter brock and collin bond did race a v8 LJ called hdt beast and holden was going to race them

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the beast was the supercharged 6, the Lockwood Special was the prorotype V8 that ended up with a 6 and being Brocks run a round

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Sorry Buddy, Talk to Harry Fox, He built one and GMH built 4, a green,pink red and white Xu2 Harry recently wrote in his book Brock and I that theydestroyed 2 of them and put 6s in the remaining 2 and sold them as xu1's. So unless you actually want to call Harry Firth a Lier i suggest you actually do YOUR homework buster.

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He is right but only sort of. XU-1 was a Holden production code given to the top of the line racing spec LC and LJ Toranas. It was catchy code and sounded impressive so they incorporated it into the official name of the high spec car, thus GTR XU-1. There were 3 V8 XU-1's built by Harry Firth for HDT. The first was a 253 powered pink LC which later got the 308 treatment. The other two were 308's from the get go. Due to the super car scare, these cars were driven into walls and buried on the testing ground at Lang Lang. The V8 LJ GTR XU-1 that was almost made into a production car was going to be named the 'LJ GTR XU-1 series II' with no mention of XU-2 or V8. The 'XU-2' production code was the code used for the racing spec LH Torana, the SL/R 5000. XU-3 was also a code used later by Holden and they continued with the other following codes too.

V8 LJ Torana was the 'LJ GTR XU-1 series II', not LJ GTR XU-2
LH SL/R 5000 was given the 'XU-2' production code

You get that...

on those big jobs

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You get that...

on those big jobs

E-mail
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yeah thats how l remember it too, but l think xu2 was considered before they settled on slr5000. my mates ashtray is interesting dont you think ?

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Well Holden Fan.
The good news first...
YES, there WAS an XU2 Torana... sorta...
The Bad news?
It was NEVER applied to the LJ Torana...
Go to the Torana Clubs website;
http://www.sydneytor...
Here you will read, and I quote:
..............................................................
When the SL/R was optioned with the 5.0 litre, it was badged the SL/R 5000 and sported large front and rear air spoilers and SL/R decals on the front guards and on the rear spoiler. The SL/R 5000 did not have wheel-arch flares, alloy or sports wheels. The vehicle, in pre-production form, was known as the GTR XU-2. (Note: the XU-2 tag was not used for the stillborn LJ V8, as it is commonly thought.
..............................................................
But for some noddys the urban myth will never die.
To them the XU2 will be forever the GTR-XU1 6cylinder's ill fated ghost and this will always haunt them as the one which got away.
Which while uninformed minds continue beleiving what their mates dead uncles lil sister who was told by her cousin who secretly worked for GMH's undercover prototype division who told some long dead relative down at the local pub.... ahhhhh forrrrget it!
It wasn't it didn't ITS'NOT! OK?
Theres always a job for Myth Busters while urban legends like these live on pmsl

Cheers, Pig (Myth Buster? no, just~> oinks308)

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oinks308

Some people still need to have the urban Legend to talk about over a few tinnies standing around a fire. Like the ever popullar 'my mates mate bought this howie that has been sittin in this shed for donkies'
I had even heard that 3 253 LJ's had managed to be registered in W.A. They had 2 308's but they would not pass them, just goes to show how much truth can be stretched to suit to type of conversation.....
cheers
:bounce:

john
Silence is Non Committal

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

Blame Evan Green and his cronies stating "too fast" bla bla bla for the cars demise to be released then you had to have a CAMS licence to buy an L34 or A9X aren't todays cars just as fast/quicker than back ten??? Stay cool oinks of cousre we have heard of Firth etc haven't we? We wouldn't expect you to go through 3000 or so magazines I also have all the info here "somewhere" cheers Lindsay.

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Lol some never learn, I have followed every Bathurst race since the HT/G Monaro's and have mainly followed the Drivers, not the model of the car racing and if in doubt won't comment.
I have often heard, "It is better to have someone think of you as the fool instead of opening your mouth and proving it".
I reserve my judgement to the facts here, not the urban myth...
Bwwwaaahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa

Pig (oinks308)
PS: To save my poor tired old bones from getting down on the floor an going thru all the cupboards and shelves here, do me a favour lil boy, can you do it for me and scan and post please?
I did say please.... ;{P

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oinks308

Look I don't know where people get of slagging off on Evan Green, Evan otherwise know as Gentle Evan. He knew his cars and spent a great deal of time successfully racing them in international rallies all over the world. He was even a works driver for Alfa at one stage. The supercar superscare story came out because our stupid car manufactures where about to release a range of cars that would almost certainly have contributed to even more deaths on our roads at a time when the road toll was pushing toward the 2,000 mark nationally. Evan said in his story that car manufactures were about to release cars that could only really go in one direction that is straight and that brakes and handling would not be up to stopping them or allowing them to go around corners safely and that only skilled drivers with racing experince should be able to drive them. the Government was about to inact laws to deal with this but instead the manufactures saw the writting on the wal and rightfully pulled the plug. Ironiclly all that Evan said was have fast car but make them safe, guess what this is what they do now.

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I owned a registered 253 lj gtr in perth which had a 308 and still have the number plates at the cop shop tuff lj

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if ya a real torana fan bro u should already know the answer to the xu2 they did come out with a prodotype it was tested and brocky said no way cause it would have been a true blue death machine thats what realy happened if u read up on it a bit better and took notice of holdens greats creations u wouldnt have to try to prove ya bro wrong good luck to the future wanabe holden fan

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Otherwise it is just the word of another Holden Fan...
If it IS fact then it WILL be documented, provide the official Brock Documentation stating otherwise and I will humbly appologise, something I wager you wouldn't offer... eh Bro?

Cheers, Pig (oinks308)

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oinks308

I have all three in a shipping container in my back yard. I am going to open it in 2024 for an auction to which you are all invited. Also for auction will be jillion mpg carburettors, stuff that makes your car run on water, and wife-control devices. Sorry, but the container has an *atomic* lock on it so I can't show you the stuff inside yet.

Dang! What's happening to my nose??? 0----
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______________________________________________
[http://gallery.oldho...|me shed...]

How about the one where Ford had kept all the XY tooling and was gonna re-release a limited # of Phase 3's? (I wonder if you could make rear seat belts a delete option?) This gem of a story was floating around in 2000....

So you'd have one of them packed just in front of the 3 x LJ 308's, with Harold Holt sitting behind the wheel? Cool!

M.

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Have to agree with the xu2 tag for LH, some (read very few)parts lists had been drawn up for the v8 LJ, was listed as an xu-1 with an option called xw-7, these were shown in Streetmachine (5-10 years back??)The rally-cross "beast" was an old rally car (rear radiator,super charger), one of three early lc,s from Harrys "scunk works".These cars started life as GTR,s & had the "wand" waved over them by Harry & co.They ran triple carbs etc. BEFORE the xu-1 came about.Of the 3 cars, 1 became Brocks beast, the next (green?)car was writen off in a rally, the last(yellow) stayed a rally car for many years & passed through a couple of owners, was painted tan & brown & upgraded to LJ(looks), when it last turned a wheel in anger in the mid 80,s, it was still wearing its original black & white plates.
It now lives in a shed not far from me, waiting restoration.I helped rescue it a few years ago.Tipple carbs mmmmmmmmmm.........
Q-ball.

"Clay is for racing on, Tar is how you get there!!"

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Q-ball.

"Clay is for racing on,Tar is how you get there!!"
[http://gallery.oldho...|My Shed]
3401

Thought I'd add my two bobs worth.
I believe the LJ V8s(which didn't make full production) was going to be code named LJ XU1-V8.
I believe the LH was going to be the XU2-but that wasn't to be..

Yes,I have the books with this in it,when I run across them again(have thousands of them!!) I'll post it..

Redbeard

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Grab a copy of the earlier editions of Australian Muscle Car magazine, they covered this whole topic in detail.

Cheers,

Webber

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The story i herd was bedford was going to call a truck model XU-2 but Holden had to stop them. If there was such a beast as the XU-2 or not, they did experiment with V8s in LC-J toranas, thats all that should matter, the fact that they tried it out.

Steve

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Steve

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Sloth Engineering, I'll do it... When I get around to it.

Yeah, I read somewhere about the Bedford XU-2 designation in some magazine once too. Of course it could be just some scribe writing the story based on what someone told him once.
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'LJ GTR XU-1 series II' was the name for the LJ XU-1 V8
The 'XU-2' production code WAS USED as the production code for the SL/R 5000
The 'XU-3' code I think was for heavy duty suspension on the HJ or similar from memory. They are all just production codes. The only one that was actually used as part of the name of the car was 'XU-1' with the LC and LJ GTR XU-1's

You get that...

on those big jobs

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You get that...

on those big jobs

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The XU3 code was one of the two codes used on Brisbane built Sandmans, the other being XX7.

This designated the suspension type on the vans.

Cheers,

Webber

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The LJ XU-1 V8 (308) Was called the XU-2,Harry Firth Came up with the Idea to put the V8 in a Yellow LC HDT XU-1,he put the idea to Holden and they said to Harry give it a go. On Dec 25 1971 Xmas Day Harry Fired up the Worlds First V8 Torana,and Showed Fred James(GMH Engineer)on that Day,and Fred Reported back to GMH and GMH gave it instant Approval. Harry Firth Named it the XU-2,Harry came up with the idea and it was Harrys Baby. He Raced the Yellow LC V8 XU-1(XU-2)at the April 1972 Easter Bathurst,Drove by Colin Bond. Colin Bond Drove it at the A.I.R Adelaide International Race Track and Peter Brock Raced it at Calder Race Track in May 1972. Plus Larry Perkins did Heaps of open Road Driving in it and getting it up to Speeds over 160MPH, Then Harry Firth took it to Holden Engineering Section and Joe Felice the Engineering Cheif,checked it out and Holden Built 3 of there own Prototypes,3-LJ XU-1 6cyl. Complete were taken to the Engineering Shop. One Orange,One Strike Me Pink,One Green the 6cyl. were Pulled out and the 308 were put in. Now the Name Harry Firth Named it the XU-2 and as far as i am Concerned who ever invents something or make somethings they are the only person who has the right to give it the Name. And Holden never got to the Stage of Naming it,Due to the 25-6-1972 Super Car Scare, But GMH Made big XU-2 Stickers up and put them on One Of the Prototpes,the Green one. The Green one was Put down the Crash Barrier Testing as Holden wanted to see what a V8 LJ would crash like and the Orange and Strike Me Pink V8 LJ XU-1s were Sold. The LH V8 Torana did get Mock up with XU-2 Stickers but it was a After Thought and Holden stayed away from the Name Due to the Super Car Scare and the Big XU-2 Stickers were Made up when the LJs were around, Before the 1974 LH Toranas were around. So Harry Built and Named it the XU-2,So we should all call it the XU-2.So that is the Real Story Mr.XU-2

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Are you yanking my cord or what? There were only two xu1.s made the LC- xu1 that was a 186. The LJ-xu1-was a 202. my 308 HQ used to embrass the mates 186 xu1.There were no factorty fitted V.8 ,s

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The HDT fitted up some 308's to some XU-1's to give them the grunt to beat the 351 Phase 3's in the dry on the longer tracks where outright power was the determining factor rather than power-to-weight and better braking/handling.

They sat the 308 back and down a bit in the chassis so the extra weight of the V8 didn't hamper the balance of the car (not that LC/LJ Torries with 6 cyl motors were particularly well balanced at any time...).

The factory toyed with the idea and made some test mules for evaluation. They were all destroyed or converted back to 6 cyl when the programme was killed off by the "Supercar" scare in 71.

The HDT coined the XU2 designation, but it was never an official Holden designation for the LJ.

The V8 HDT converted cars were used for racing for a time in classes that allowed the freedom to use larger than stock motors.

**Edit** There have been consistent rumours over the years that some of these V8 powered LJ's escaped into the public domain but no concrete evidence has been uncovered that this actually happened and would have gone against ALL the rules for test mule vehicles.

Cheers...Dave
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How come there are no reg,o examples on the road. it was a wank.the ones you see are back yard jobs. Done up.

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Unfortunately, one of my mates has my book with the facts in it at his place. I'll get it back this week.

No V8 LC or LJ Torana's were ever released from the factory. However, the factory DID play around with the idea for a while. Maybe it was just to keep the engineers amused, but I doubt that. Back in the early 70's the "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" saying was fact and Holden was hurting in the race winning department compared to the Phase3's.

The LH was a couple of years away, but they had the 308 in production and it would fit into an LJ's engine bay...why not have a play. It probably would have eventuated if politics hadn't come into play. Now, we can only dream or do what we think the factory should have done.

IMHO, the GTR-X would have been Australia's Corvette and would have been an absolute winner. Imagine one of them with an L34 or Chev 350 under the bonnet....but we'll never know for sure as it was a dead ended programme.

Just a bit of trivia...the 308 is 10 kg lighter than the 307...

Cheers...Dave
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They were a truck motor.The 308 was heaps more powerful than the 307.I proved it heaps of times

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when comparring a 307 against a 308, you must remember that there was no hi-po version of the 307 ever made...however a few basic factory parts from that era,ie fuelie heads,4brl,more comp etc...would really transform them into ball tearers...so there both 5 Litre engines it comes down to power parts

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Mr.Bogan,not yanking your cord.In 1981 i wrote to Custom Rodder Magazine about the GTR XU-2 and the Editor Eddie Ford Checked with Norm Darwin,who worked at the Engineering Shop where the XU-2s were Built.As i said before 3 Completed GTR XU-1s were taken to The Engineering Shop and 6Cyl's were Pulled out. One Orange,One strike me pink,One Green and Joe Felice who was one of the Boss at the Engineering Shop and Fred James and Graham Smith all worked on these Cars.They were test run at Lang Lang and the Strike me pink car had a Fully Blue Printed and Balanced 308 with Big Cam in it and Big Valves in the 308 Heads and would do over 160MPH Plus,it had the V8 M21 4 Speed Gearbox and the XU-1 Diff (2.78Banjo) and Rev to 7000RPM in all gears.What a Beast,The Orange GMH XU-2 was called the Lockwood Special as it had Lockwood Locks on the Bonnet Due to Joe Felice the Engineering Boss used to Drive it Home as it was his Personal Car for awhile to Keep what was Porwering it a Secret when it was out on the streets in Melbourne and in the street where Joe Lived,and the Orange GMH XU-2 was the only XU-2 to have the Big Tank in it and the Twin Fillers on it.The Orange XU-2 was Sold and the Strike me Pink Car. GMH was oh so close in Building them if the Super car Scare was a month later it would of been to late they would of been in Production and gmh had all the Engineering Sketches and Blueprints Done on the XU-1 to turn it into the XU-2. They used Harry Firth 1971 LC HDT XU-1 V8(The First V8 Torana In The WORLD) To build the 3-GMH XU-2 Proto types,But they werent Really Proto types Because they were Just Really 3-XU-1s with 308s put in them.Harry Firth Named it the XU-2,and Harry Firth came up with the idea first to put the V8 in the LC-LJ Torana,and Holden Never got round to Naming it as the Program got stopped Because of the SuperCar Scare,then they were going to call the LH L34 Torana the XU-2 as well But because of the Super car Scare they stayed away from the name XU-2 And called it the LH SLR/5000 L34 but they did some mock up Photos of it with XU-2 stickers on the front guards.The Big XU-2s Stickers were made up for the LJ XU-2 Torana,200 of them for the 200 XU-2s that they had to Build so they could Race them at Bathurst(C.A.M.S Rules) Back then.The LH didn't come out till 1974,two years after the XU-2 Stickers were made.And the XU-2s were going to have a Twin System like the LH Torana have,a idea they moved on to the LH Program. I know more,but i have said to much now Mr.XU-2

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That is a very believable story & I know That Eddie would only print what he's found to be facts.
Mr XU-2 would you please email me any more info you would like to share (but off forum if you wish) Thanks,
Dave
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xu3 was actually a lj with a rotary motor and only got released in japan never made it to aus

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Really?
What details can you provide?

We've all heard of the HJ (HX?) Prem fitted with a rotary, and most of us have seen the article about the LJ Torana, badged as a Daewoo - but this LJ rotary is a real doozie of a claim.

HKing - the other one plays jingle bells.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

Yeah,and the one about Holden running out of motors and putting in ford motors to make up the numbers...hahaha...

LJ XU1-V8
LH XU2-apparently became the SLR5000!!!
We may never know..... The truth is out there-somewhere..

Redbeard

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Finished finally, what a read.

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I am so tired of listening to the illiterate wallys rave on over this one, please photocopy and post all proof of what you claim to be fact, it is public knowledge that the LH was kept up wraps almost right up to its release where Modern Motor magazine snapped spy photos of them with cloaked fronts and rears so did up an artists impression of what they percieved the front and rear ends to look like, the artists renditions actually looked better than the original LH Torana.
But Code XU/2 WAS thrown around willy nilly to put the public off of the scent of what was really happening with the LH SLR/5000.
This was also revealed in Modern Motor magazine.
As for Harry Firth and co. yes they did fit up the V8's but Holden never intended to release them to the public as any thoughts of that was killed off during the Super Car scare period along with the Phase IV's etc, no no no never never EVER were Holden intending on releasing them.
Believe what you will but PLEASSSSSSSSSSE POST THE PROOF instead of just dribbling on over it, we know, they know, HOLDEN KNOWS, I just wish you would finally get it and wise up also!
PROVE everyone wrong and post the factual links to the factual Holden endorsed release story stating so or slink off and hide out under your rusty POS!
Cherio!

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Iwas there, when you were a sperm in ya dads ball bag.Have seen LH torries doing wheel stands,on nitous -11.3 and street rego.ed.Thats draging,not standard.Sorry about the sperm joke, was only kidding,But blokes [Naughty Pottyword] me when they crap on about things they know nothing about.

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I think you targetted the wrong guy Bogan...Yeah, Right! is agreeing with us....it is Mr XU2 that is claiming knowledge that no-one else has...

Cheers...Dave
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I dug it up at Lang Lang.
FB with mags, rust and attitude. Holden Heaven.

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FB with mags, rust and attitude. Holden Heaven.

I was thinking of that other bloke, Daves right.Thanks Dave for pulling me into line,Would have made a dick outa my self again.Can.t help it. Must be a proper bogan.

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Someone has to look out for you, mate...and I guess you're stuck with me for that job... :-))

Cheers...Dave
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Thanks dave , big mouth. don't think before hand.

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I'm learnin' bloke, lol.

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Guys, read Australian Muscle Car magazine, it has the details on the real story with info from ALL parties involved and copies of actual inter-departmental memos about this stuff.

It was from an issue prior to June last year.

Cheers,

Webber

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I read in an interveiw with brock years ago they were talking about the XU1's with the V8, he jokeling refered them as the "lockwood specials" because the bonnet pins had padlocks through then to keep prying eyes out of the bonnet, and (the ol' brains working over time here lol) I'm sure one was pink or what ever colour holden called it, but they were never known as the XU2's to my knowallge. Just my 2cents worth.

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no car but want a rusty panelvan shell to fix, or a HR rolling shell.
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Geelong, Victoria

Somewhere I have a page from an LH parts catalogue.The illustration show what we know as an SLR 5000. BUT there is the outline of a sticker ( on the front guard, just behind the nose cone)the 'X and the 2 are clearly visable. So I belive that at one stage Holden where going with the "XU-2" name. Why'd they can it? My guess is that it sounded a bit to much like 'f#@k you too'

Webby

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sorri guys but i was born in 88 so i have no idea what the super car scare in the 70;s was can somone tell me
cody
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- Theres no replacement for displacement-

Hi COdy,

The Abridged Version:

Back in 71, Ford, Chrysler and Holden were preparing "Super" cars to win Bathurst. In those days, the cars that raced at Bathurst (and in the Austrlian Touring Car Championship) had to be very close to showroom stock and, to be elligible for racing, at least 500 examples of that particular model (e.g the XU-1) had to be sold to the public.

Ford were preparing a Phase4 GTHO based on the XA Coupe (ever wonder why the rear wheel arches on those coupes are huge? They were designed to house 15x8 or 15x10 wheels for racing...), Chrsler had something in the wind (can't remember what) and Holden was tinkering with the V8 LJ.

A very respected motoring Journalist at the time, Evan Green (IIRC...if I got that wrong, someone please correct me) wrote a column in the Sydney Morning Herald newspaper along the lines of the car manufacturers were trying to kill pimply faced young kids by selling these "Super" cars that were capable of about 160 mph (260 kmh) to them.

I have never read the actual article, but Evan Green maintains that it was written "tongue in cheek"....

Anyway, the Pollies got hold of it and put enormous pressure on the Big3 manufacturers to not produce these cars and kill young people. You also have to remember that the car manufacturers had large amounts of Government protection (Tariffs, Restrictions on the number of cars that could be imported, etc) so they folded and the "super" car programmes were scrapped/scaled down.

Ford campaigned the XY for another year as they had to redevelop the XA racing programme. Holden decided to wait until the LH to release a V8 Torana and Chrysler continued to campaign their 6 cyl Chargers.

At the same time, the production car racing rules were changed from "Showroom Stock" to "Improved Production" which gave the teams the scope to modify road cars to better suit the track rather than having to sell track-cars to the public to drive on the road.

After a few years, we ended up with GroupC (highly modified but based on Limeted Edition Special cars), then GroupA (back to the start of Improved Touring as far as mods were concerned but gave Turbo cars a HUUUUUGE advantage over N/A cars) until we got to the V8 Supercars we now know.

Have we progressed? I really dunno....

Cheers...Dave
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More history/mythical gossip...

The Phase 4 Falcs that were made, were all sedans (and there are a million & 1 rumours about that we won't go into here.) The 2-doors must have been planned, but none had been given the Ph 4 treatment when the pressure was applied. SOME of those high perf Ph.4 parts that Howard Marsden had ordered did get included in the John Goss special GT's and maybe a few other limited edition models.

Chrysler were lining up to develop and race a balls-out 5.2 litre V8 Charger, that would have left even the freakish E49 behind. 5.2 and later 5.9 Chargers were later released but all were auto's and not developed for any racing. About as sporting as a Monaro LE.

M.

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ive got issue 1 of best toranas here with a writeup in it about the toranas history, the XU-2 and the GTR-X with pics il post a new thread cos i dont know how to work the post pic thing into an existing thread

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thanks, Hayden
Blown n injected UC

I have a couple of minutes of footage of 2 gtr-x's in action at lang-lang on dvd. One of them has vic rego plates on it............

Dave

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Did some reading up this avro. Here are the true facts.I was part wrong.Got this book'' the peter brock story''It says in august 1972 p.brock and HDT chief mechanic, Ian tate, developed a XU1 with a five litre v.8. It was a one off prototype. with bathurst 3 months away, it was gunna be aford killer.It was run as alow budget sports sedan. Boot was full of fuel tank with fillers on both sides. It made 250 h.p in a xu1 body.But it never raced as a tourer.A sydney motoring journalist wrote acondeming story about it.Lethal in the hands of young drivers.The story made a political foot ball out of it.Holden were going to mass produce it, but not after the big stink. So it was scrapped.Brockies one shows anumber 10 on the bonnet and sides with castrol and levi jeans as sponsers.I did not know this until today.You learn something different all the time.I take back what i said last night,it was a saturday night after all, I had a few. sorry guys.But holden never made them.So close though.

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I was gonna mention this the other day but I didn't think it counted for much. Back in mid to late '78 when I still had my LC and a bloke I worked with had a much better looking (but much slower :-) ) LJ, well he reckons a couple of years beforehand he looked at a V8 Torana like we are talking about sitting in a car yard, and he made the point that it had a filler cap on each side...
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I have a book here titled "build your own xu-2" by Geoff Boatswain, published in 1985 by jwd publications.
It is basically a step by step on fitting a 308 into an LJ. It is also full of "Wanky" comments & stories of how good the author is, plus it came with your own xu-2 stickers.

Just thought it was worth mentioning however weird......

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i have a magazine called the history of torana from viva to victory it has a big write up about the gtrx and the xu2 it basiclly says that it was a lj with a lh body with a 300 horsepower 308 with 4 wheel discs but it came out as the l34

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Guys, my dad used to do flag marshalling back in the days the toranas came out. Peter brock actually tested a 308 LJ, peter was telling his crew that everything felt fine car handled great and it had heaps more power but his crew wouldnt let him go any faster, sorry can't remember the speed off the top of my head, down the last main straight of Mt pano cause the front of the car was starting to lift off the track, any faster could of flipped the car.

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If you could get a copy of [http://gallery.oldho...|this magazine] it might be interesting.
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OK: THE FACTS:
Early 1972: Harry Firth, Ian Tate and Fred James built two 308 c.i.d. (5047cc) V8 LJ prototypes, one sebring orange, the other strike me pink. Peter Brock and Ian Tate did most of the dyno work on the motors. Initially Repco manufactured the engine parts and sent them to us at HDT for assembly. The 308 V8 used was basically a "tuned" version of the standard engine (Cleaned up heads, tuned exhaust, flat top pistons and a chevrolet aftermarket camshaft altered to a Holden profile, on the dyno HP jumped from 214HP to 271HP with these mods.
These two prototypes (code named XU-2) had dual 17 gal. tanks with a filler on each rear quarter panel.
GMH gave the greenlight for production.
On Friday 13th June 1972 the project was scrapped by GMH after the 160mph "bullets on wheels" supercar scare.
What happened to the cars ?

Joe Felice drove the sebring orange XU-2 as a company car for a brief period ( with the V8 and large tank replaced with a 6cyl and normal tank).

Both XU-2 prototypes became engineering testbeds and NOT ONE was ever sold to the public.

The 200 XU-2 "decals" that were produced were returned to GMH.
They were 222mm wide and 130mm high with white graphics on a black background.

The "third" XU-2 was Harry Firths private yellow XU-1 that he converted earlier.

Hopefully that clears it up !

Thankyou for your time.

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"On Friday 13th June 1972 the project was scrapped by GMH "

13th June 1972 was a --> [http://www.flicklive...|Tuesday].
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Now they say that Holden destroyed the V8 LJ XU-1, No way Harry Firths Yellow LC HDT XU-1 the 308 was taken out and a 6Cyl put in it and was Sold The Vic Reg. was KSN116 Now if you can get a Copy of Wheels Magazine Feb 1973 they do a story on a V8 LJ GTR Torana in N.S.W they test drive it,the Editor of Wheels magazine Peter Robinson says Harry Firth has two V8 Torana's one his own the other a Actual Engineering Prototype now the one of his own is the Yellow LC XU-1 HDT V8 Car and the other the Actual Engineering Prototype my Guess the Strike Me Pink V8 LJ XU-1 and that car had a Worked 308 in it.It was fully Blueprinted and Balanced with a Big Cam and Big Valve's in the 308 Heads and harry says in Australian Muscle Cars Magazine that the Pink car was to become his Property for doing the early work on the Yellow LC HDT XU-1 that Holden used to Copy on to there 3-Prototypes.Now i have heard from other people that harry used to drive the pink car as his Personal car in late 1972 and in the Wheels story Dated Feb 1973 the Engineering car was there so thats why i say it was the Pink LJ XU-1.???? Now the Orange Car the lockwood special was turned back into a 6cyl and Sold as stated in A.M.C Magazine and i have spoke to Joe Felice and he told me the V8 was taken out and a 6Cyl put in and Cleaned up and Sold as a second hand XU-1 in Vic somewhere. The Green V8 LJ XU-1 was the only one put Down the Crash Barrier Testing place and i say this as the Green one you never Hear anything about that Car so i would say a safe bet thats what Happened to the Green Car. Now the Super car scare was the 30/6/1972 But Harry has a Engineering Prototype at HDT HQ in Feb 1973 Stated by Wheels Editor Peter Robinson so wouldent the prototype been Destroyed before that Date. and i wrote to Customer Rodder Magazine Editor C/O Postmark in 1981 and Editor Eddie.L.Ford says Norm Darwin from Holden said that the V8 LJ XU-1's were Sold and not Destroyed,Norm worked at the Engineering Shops were the Cars were Built,so wouldent he know.What is strange is Ford had the Balls to come out and say that the 4-XA Phase 4 Cars were Sold and no Kickback from the Goverment for Selling them now its 35years later it would be safe for Holden to say we Sold the 2 Prototypes and the Orange one was Converted back to a 6Cyl so its Safe to say about that and the pink one was still a V8 when Sold but where it went it was Registed as a V8 in that State in Mid 1974 any way.So no Problem any way. Holden put out a statement to say that No V8 XU-1 Will be Built Dated 30/June/1972 and i think its a Pride thing now that they wont say that the Orange and Pink LJ XU-1's were Sold. I have got Photos of the Orange and Pink LJ V8 XU-1 and a ADD of the 1972 LJ Torana XU-1 308 V8 f/sale in Late 1974 in a Car Yard and have spoke to the car yard owner who sold the car and he told me the history of the car and the person he got it off Bought it off Harry Firth in Melbourne and the Pink car had a Twin System on it.And In A.M.C Magazine Muscle Car Mail a Holden Boss wrote in and he said he Borrowed the Orange V8 XU-1 From Holden to use in a Hill Climb and he says it had a Unusual Twin System on it,So the Pink one Twin System the Orange one Twin System ?????? So im on the They were Sold Side and not the They were Destroyed Side. You should have a Poll on here for Fans to Vote Sold or Destroyed Regards Mr XU-2

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There are many things we will never know about gmh history as they do not wish us to, plus many of the guys around then are no longer here or getting old & memories fading.

A few interesting points you have there.

Dave
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"the 4-XA Phase 4 Cars were Sold"

A friend of mine who *never* tells fibs, about 10 years go was telling me that in the early 80's when he was living in Perth or thereabouts had an XA GT and besides all the usual GT stuff it had a Phase 4 badge on the glove box, the motor had solid lifters, and =most= interestingly it had a 160mph speedo. He did say it would do WAY more than 140 mph too. I can't remember the exact figure; I'll email him and find out.
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Slight error on my part. Seems there were only a couple of real Phase 4's. My mate says regarding his car:

"The story goes, Ford was set to push out the phase 4 but after this article there was public outcry. Ford was banned from building them. So they stopped. The problem was they had 250 high performance engines. So they put them in the standard GT (with a few extras) and call them a GT Special. It was hard to pick them from the outside but once you opened the bonnet you could see it was anything but standard. The only way you could know for sure was a build slip that was stuck behind the glove box out of site. It was put there so the production guys new what to build."

Sooo... he had an XA with *some* real Phase 4 bits. The code was --> [http://www.google.co...|RPO83].

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They also slid some of those engines into fairlanes, a mate that worked at ford had one of these, it also featured a winged sump from factory.

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Acording to several books I have read ("how to hotrod and rebuild Holden V8s" amongst them) There were quite a few cars sold to unsuspecting members of the general public that had "L34-High Output" option engines fitted to them... these were the stupendously grunty engines that were raced in the Toranas...

In order to be raced they had to sell a certain number of these packages to the public for them to be considered "factory" to comply with the racing rules. So to avoid public scritiny after the supercar scare they just quietly slipped these engines into various "off the shelf" models and sold them to the public...

Note: L34 and L34-High Output ARE NOT THE SAME!!! Option code L34 was a standardish 308 with 240BHP, available as an option in many vehicles... L34-High Output was a 308 with (estimated, GMH never made figure public) 350BHP!!!

The A9X toranas used a "blue motor" variation on the L34-High output package that race teams got up to approx 400BHP...

Victa.

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".

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Victa.

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".

when my computer is fixed (useing my ps3 atm) i will post pics with the phase 4 story and there is a newspaper article from the sun-herald dated 25 jun 1972 saying that the big 3 car manufacturers r bout 2 make super cars with a top speed of 160 miles an hour and i says holden is makeing a v8 torana. the top speed of the gtho phase 4 i was 170mph in race trim

cheers mitch

only milk and juice come in 2 liters

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cheers mitch my email

"and a chevrolet aftermarket camshaft altered to a Holden profile,"

Are you saying a small block Chev cam was fitted into a 308? :-\
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All this F**d, cams, and who actually did make what, has reminded me of an interesting bit of trivia.
Back around the time Dick Johnson was collecting pet rocks at Bathurst. He was playing around with cam profiles in the Clevos.
At one point, he ran a GTR XU1 profile and timing on the Clevo cam, with these trippy mushroom shaped lifters.
Apparently it made some serious power too.
Cheers.

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Hi Guys

I think he mean it the other way around.

Harry Firth around, 308 camshafts ground to a Chev profile.

Dr Terry.

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If you stick a V8 in your LC/LJ and have the GTR[XU-1] dash then you want the tacho to read right, not 33% too high because of 6 cyl calibration. I once heard someone say that Torries have a 6/8 switch on the back of the tach to be ready for when V8's were going to be factory fitted. Is this true?
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Nah...they have a 4/6 cyl switch. You'd need to get it modified at an automotive instrument place.

OR

Something I never found out, but have always wondered...does an HT/HG tacho fit the Torana GTR dash?

Cheers...Dave
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Cheers...Dave

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sorry peoples....the xu-2 were a 6...they only made 3 of them...1 was distroded at the holdern test track...1 is in the national car musuem in south australia....and holdern still have 1....it had a firber glass body...pop up head lights and look a lot like the datsun 260zx...in fact datsun bring out that car was the reason holdern caned the project,,,,how do i know this....have stood and looked at the one in the musem....if you contract them they will send you the details that they gave me...i have lost mine

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Hi Holden Fan.

The car you are talking about is called the GTR-X, it is a fibregalss prototype built on a steel chassis with a 186 XU-1 motor. The XU-2 was the intended name for the LH Torana SL/R 5000.

Now I don't want to sound harsh, but I think you should return to your rehab centre or at least learn to spell.

Dr Terry.

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"it is a =fibregalss= prototype"

hee hee hee.... ;-)

One thing's for sure though, around here, holdern is spelt Holden!
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I WAS going to answer this one but decided that; it has already been answered to death, that you cannot, ever, get thru to those who refuse to believe the truth as it is and who prefer to believe fanciful myths over factual events when it comes to the legend of the XU2 Torana, and to top it off, I think it best not to feed illiterate Trolls... I feel any replies have been again, sadly wasted on this occasion… ;{D

Cheers Pig (oinks308)

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oinks308

Peter brock was my hero, I've got the book , and know the facts, I didn't write that stuff for people to laugh at me , and say other wise, its the truth. I'm starting to realise why you left this site.--- bogan...

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jesus christ! what a bloody long read!!!
um just a question tho...just wondering if the users "X HDT Engineer" and "Mr. XU-2" would be able to email me more info on this topic as i find it massively interesting (preferably everything you know would be tops).
Or if you know of/ have any other interesting pieces of torana history let me know.
email address is:
jordsworld(at)yahoo.com (remove the brackets and put in the &)
cheers
jordan
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[http://gallery.oldho...|LC GTR 1970s Shed]

[http://www.uniquecar...|Torana xu-2 ]

check out the PRE RELEASE BROCHURE
WOW; shows interia,body,dash...
There is even a video of it being driven (
Sorry for all you plastic haters ;)

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Sorry, John, that isn't an XU-2, it is a GTR-X. Completely different animal.

Cheers...Dave

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that brochure etc is for the GTR-X, which is a different car to the XU-2.
Unfortunately they were both never released.
cheers
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[http://gallery.oldho...|LC GTR 1970s Shed]

I know it wasnt an XU-2 but didn't brock drive a v8 xu-1 mongrel early days? I remember him talking about it and saying it was a real bastard to drive-with the engine 1/2 way in the cab!!
Cheers BOBBY======

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TELL SOMEONE WHO CARES

Brock raced a V8 LC at bathurst (not the 1000 race) in easter 1972. Larry perkins drove a LJ (or old lc made to look like a lj)around testing it out west before the project was canned then two of the cars were turned back into 202 toranas and the other 2 were smashed into the dead sled (at lang lang) and scrapped.

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You have to hbe kidding about this thread. What a bore.

From what I can gather, no one knows the truth cos there has been too much alcohol induced "tales" told.

Everyone knows someone who knows everything.

Pfffffttttttttttt.

RIP this thread.

Darren

"New Holdens mean a great deal to Korea."

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Feel free to add any more comments on such an old and interesting story, i like V8 toranas and also would like to know what could have been.....

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I can relate to that...

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Well,Darren 202,if it's such a bore-read it again and go n get tucked into bed! nighty night. :)

Redbeard

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Redbeard

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I bought a HDT dvd the other week which had Brocky explaining about a V8 torry they'de put together.

Very interesting veiwing :)

Cheers,
Shane.
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hi if anyone here has a scan of the AMC Article on the subject could they send me a copy to shanez1987@hotmail.com thanks

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Torana fanatics - of which I am one from way back - there WAS an XU-2....the catch is that it was not an LJ Torana. The XU-2 was the RPO (Regular Production Option)for an LH Torana that never saw the road. The XU-2 was the conceptual predecessor to the L-34. In May 1974 the XU-2 was superceded by the L-34, which was fundamentally a similar car. Probably the most relevant change was HQ style disc brakes and related 14" wheels, plus if I recall correctly the bolt on wheel flares to fit the 14" wheels under. The XU-2 LH V8 had regular 13" wheels.

There was also a V8 308 XU-1. It looked identical to the XU-1, had a unique 308 V8, a 36 gallon fuel tank that took up much of the boot, had twin fillers, with regular fuel tank deleted. It had a different RPO number, but it was not XU-1 or XU-2. It had regular XU-1 stickers on the front fenders and the boot lid spoiler.

There may be many stories, legends, which we should all respect as they all contain elements of truth depending on the perspective of the story teller and events in 71/72/73 etc. The above is fact from the inside.

Merry Xmas to all.

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I cannot believe this thread is still alive after all this time, yet there are still those after all this time who are still to blind to see, sad really... :{/

Thank you, you are correct, let us hope that some of these myth busted dreamers believe what it is you have stated as they have remained faithfully blind to their sorry misguided mythical tales spread by so many who were there and saw it all with their own two (blinded?) eyes... ;{P

Actually I think regards a few of the poster's, their fantastic grip on our English language and spelling abilities should have been proof enough of where they have come from...

You have related it as I have read and known it since the days when XU-1's were still rolling off our local Holden Dealers floors... I just wonder how long some of these self titled experts have been around, with such a grasp of the Queens English I doubt some have experience puberty yet let alone life as it really was back in the day...

Merry Xmas...

Cheers Pig (OINKS308)

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oinks308

Its really starting to piss me off, don't you ****** understand what I've wrote this before? and listen, last time I'm saying it. THERE WERE NO XU-2 torana's made = only two. get it.Holden fan -your a *****. and so is your dick head brother.So sign in or piss off- gut less. You wern't even born when they were made.Or you would know more So don't talk about something you know nothing about. By the way they wern't anything special, My H.Q. 308 4 speed ran rings around the mates XU-1 We had heaps of drags. beat him every time.You can't beat cubes.wins every time sucker.While am at it, another mates tripple carbed 192 H.R. also kicked his arse. So xu1,s are over rated.Stop dreaming ******. and stop tugging it.

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You are certainly right Mr Bogan. There were no XU-2's ever made. The closest was a pilot mockup LH Torana with XU-2 on the fender. The V8 LJ Torana was RPO XW-7. Listed on design documents as a "Special Export Vehicle". Looked like an XU-1 as mentioned earlier. Had XU-1 stickers on it. No XW-7's were ever produced either. A few engineering protos made it to the roads as the legends recount. The XW-7 went through design thru early '72 and died in June '72. A real pity. Total hype about the danger from Evan Green. A showroom SS Commodore will run a mid 13 these days. Faster than a showroom XW-7 would have been. Long live the legends.

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Mr.Bogan and Mr Oinks308,you two are the miss informed guys on the V8 LJ. Holden Built 3-V8 LJ XU-1's and Harry Firth Built the First one a LC HDT XU-1 Yellow LC V8 (308)Car the Worlds First V8 Torana,That Holden Engineering used to Copy off to Build the GMH Orange V8 LJ XU-1 Car the First V8 LJ Torana Built by GMH,and after they tested that car and drove it around,And Joe felice was the Engineering Shop Boss there at the Time used to drive that Car right up to Late 1973 then it was Sold by GMH to Mollison Motors in Kyneton Vic and they Sold it in Vic. And about 1 month later after the Orange LJ V8 XU-1 was built GMH started on the Strike Me Pink and Green LJ with there V8's and on the 30/6/1972 the Supercar Scare stopped it all. Now GMH put out a Statement to say No V8 LJ XU-1 will be Built,But the Orange LJ XU-1 was sold to Kyneton motors in Vic and Harrys HDT LC XU-1 Yellow Car was Sold there to. The Strike Me Pink Car was still a V8 and was Sold and moved interstate from Vic and the Green Car as You never hear anything about that LJ its a Safe Bet that its the Only LJ XU-1 V8 that did the Last Ride down the Crash Barrier Testing Place at Lang Lang and i Heard that Holden wanted to Crash test one with the V8 in it to see how it crashed like.Now the 3-GMH V8 LJ XU-1 were only 6cyl XU-1's to start with,and GMH pulled the 6Cyl out and in went the 308 with a M21 4Speed and Banjo Diff. If GMH wasent so Scared of G.M.C there Owners with the No Race policy back in 1972,Please remember HDT was a Sneaky Backdoor Racing Unit of Holden Back then.And scared of the Goverment over the Supercar Scare thats why they wont say they off Loaded the Orange and pink V8 LJ XU-1's. The Best thing i like about ford is they said there 4-Phase 4 XA GTHO Ford Falcon Sedans were Sold out the Backdoor they are alot braver than Holden for sure and the Goverment never said or did any thing about them selling them. So 35years later GMH could open up now as there would be no Kickback from the Goverment,Holden has turned the V8 LJ XU-1 into a Unicorn now a Mythical Beast that Holden Fans think were Destroyed or Still out there.And the Blueprints and engineering Drawrings that GMH did for Inline Factory Making on the V8 LJ are Called xw-7 so the V8 LJ was ohh so close to be built cause thats the last step the blueprints to build the car.So 4 were Built Harry's LC HDT Car and 3-GMH LJ XU-1's the Green one i Beleived was Destroyed and the Orange and Pink ones were Sold and Norm Darwin who Worked where they were Built told Eddie L Ford from Custom Rodder Magazine they were All Sold and not Destroyed.Holden know the Pink and Orange Cars were Sold,but cause of G.M.C no race Policy and The Supercar Scare they will never say. Regards Mr XU-2

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WOO HOO 100TH POST!
this thread is going for too long.
[http://gallery.oldho...|LC GTR 1970s Shed]

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hey guys there was such thing as a gtr xu2 there were 12 built from memory it never made it to production because the goverment didnt allow it was clocked at 296km down conrod straight with larry perkins behind the wheel there is a big write up about it in the australia mucle car mag about 3 years ago samething happen to the gtho with the big block in it the nsw cops got them in the end as hwy pricute cars i cant remember wat happen to the xu2s i do no of 1 tho!!!!!!!

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My LJ had the 4.4 litre V8 from the leyland P76....the holden V8 was cast iron and too heavy for the car ...upset its balance.....the Leyland engine was alloy so light enough.

Not exactly ridgy didge Holden but went like a bat out of hell....and drank fuel like it was going out of style.....

First wife said it was dangerous....Why else would I want it....made me choose between her and the car...I was young and stupid then so I sold the car.....Don't make the same misstake if you have a car.

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I got told many times that there were 3 xu-2s made, but never made it to the road beacause on the testing tracks the would go fast but wouldnt steer very well because they were to heavy over the little front end.

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ok been watching this post with great interest.ok here it is as it was,my grandfather worked for gmh during the years of the torana and here is what he said happened.there was a plan gmh came up with to hide the real deal wich was about to come from gmh.it was intentionly leaked out to throw ford of the track and corse confusion.there was a plan to produce an lj 2 door with a 308,there was 4 of these cars made 2 test cars 1 for larry firth and 1 as a demo come show car.this car was actualy called the gtr xw7 project ,the what was to be the xu2 became the slr 5000.there is only 1 0f the xw7's left wich is housed in a museum in nsw.the 2 test cars were turned into landfill and the 4th hasnt been seen since.the full story and specs of the xw7 was in an isue of wheels mag in 1992.and no my garndfather wasnt an engineer for gmh,he just bolted the doors on.but he was there

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Not 100% sure but from what I've ever read, V8 LJ's were going to be called XU-1 V8. XU2 was what they were going to call SLR5000. Now here's what I do know for a fact. I have a February 1974 LH parts catalogue and on page 333 there is a picture of the front guard with the outline of an XU-2 decal which is refered to on that page as TRANSFER - "XU-2". Now here's the kicker, on page 280 it lists TRANSFER - "XU-2" .............5 Litre engine..........9928864 (part number)The interesting thing is that it also lists SL/R 5000 transfers as well. I can scan this for Holdenpedia if needed.

Cheers
David

www.hq308.com

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Cheers
David

aka hq308belmont

www.hq308.com

My Shed

in 72 i went with Harry for a short drive in what i now know as the "Lockwood" it had a v8 but harry told me not to say too much about it
way back when the new GTR was released Harry was driving and testing a plain XU-1.
i was part of the HDT team for the 1973 Bathurst.

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Bogan, your HQ 308 may have beat the XU-1 in a straight line, but in corners and under brakes IE a race track, you'd have NO chance (GTHO'S couldn't) . My cousin chased a HT/HG 350 down the Pacific Hwy in his XU-1 (many years ago) and was all over him like a rash. HQ's dont handle a whole lot better than HG's & the 350 had MORE power and weighed LESS.... (YES I know about the limits of HG brakes - had a 186 Monaro about 20yrs ago & have a Premier now).Please dont bag out a great car - dont get me wrong I've owned 2 V8 HX series - I love the power too, but from the factory NO full body "H" series Holden would get near an XU-1 on the track. 1450 + kg vs 1090 kg - 240hp vs 190 that's why the Torana went to war!!

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Shame to let a loooong thread like this die...
[puts on flame suit]

Comments like the "308 was too heavy for the little front end",
dont take in to account the heavy mods done to the fire wall and tunnel of the XU1-V8. The motor and box sat waaay
back to try and compensate for the heavier weight at the front
end.
There are also a few other wierd factory mods that made it in to late production LJs like twin exhaust mounts. This does not automatically make the car an XU1-V8 prototype
back engineered to a 6, it is just a quirk.

I think all that read this thread now know that the XU1-V8
and the XU2 designation for the SLR500 are two entirely
different beasts.

There are so many wierd and wonderful oddities out there
of great aussie cars, that were not dealer sold vehicles,
but factory sold vehicles to individuals within the management structure as 'specials' that we'll never know
the true stories associated with them.

On a totally different level, I had the opportunity of
seeing two V8 Mitsubishi Magnas a few years back! Both
all wheel drive. Both were...'crushed'... or were they!?

Gotta laugh! gotta keep those legends alive!

Cheers, Leakey

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Leaky,No Standard LJ Torana "S" GTR,XU-1 had the Twin Exhaust Brackets on the Passenger Side from the Factory as you Say. The G.M.H Orange V8 LJ XU-1 and the G.M.H Strike Me Pink V8 XU-1 had Twin Systems on them,We will never know if the V8 LJ had got the Green Light if the Road Cars would of had twin Systems on them or a 2 into 1 single exhaust. But the G.M.H Prototypes Did have Twin System on them.I have got a 1978 Repco Exhaust System Book,where you can order a Twin System for a LJ Torana.The Twin Exhaust was made By CAN-AM Part Number 446A,I couldent even see a Holden Dealer fitting a Twin Exhaust to a New LJ Back in 1972-1973 as there was no Twin Exhaust to Buy,you would have to go to a Exhaust Place and get it Custom made Back then.So NO LJ from the Factory or Holden dealer would of fitted a Twin System,So the V8 G.M.H Prototypes there Twin Exhaust were Done by Holden Internal Engineering on them Cars.CAN-AM dident make the Twin exhaust to 1978,Not 1972-1973 And a G.M.H Boss in 1972 Borrowed the Orange V8 XU-1 to run in a Hill Climb Comp. and he says it had a unusual Twin System on it,he wrote in to A.M.C Mag(Muscle Mail)saying about it and i got a Pic of the Strike Me Pink V8 XU-1 from behind with a twin System on it. Regards Mr.XU2

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Didnt you guys read AMC Issue 7?...As for some of the above...it is the biggest load of dribble I have read in ages.....
Regards

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Didnt you guys read AMC Issue 7?

As for the dribble above....what a waste of space most of it is...297kph, 12 built...etc etc...I love the under 25yo experts.

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Team, certainly good to see this thread still has some life after more than 3 years, and 26 years since the LJ Torana V8 concept was born.

I posted this back in 2006 (above)

"There were no XU-2's ever made. The closest was a pilot mockup LH Torana with XU-2 on the fender. The V8 LJ Torana was RPO XW-7. Listed on design documents as a "Special Export Vehicle". Looked like an XU-1 as mentioned earlier. Had XU-1 stickers on it. No XW-7's were ever produced either. A few engineering protos made it to the roads as the legends recount. The XW-7 went through design thru early '72 and died in June '72. A real pity. Total hype about the danger from Evan Green. A showroom SS Commodore will run a mid 13 these days. Faster than a showroom XW-7 would have been. Long live the legends."

In addition to a few points made by enthusiasts above, a couple clarifications:

The design released to production (prior to the project being abandoned) had a 2 into 1 exhaust system. The muffler at the rear was a standard one inlet, two outlet LJ XU-1 muffler.

The weight of the car was 1220kg. This a weighbridge measured number of a 308 XU-1.

I have been lucky enough to own to 308 XU-1's, an LC and an LJ, and they handle brilliantly. They are not too heavy for the front end. The engine is a little heavier than the 6, but the weight sits further back. The closer cylinder head sits about a fingers thickness off the firewall.

This would have been a great car, and not even that quick by today's standards, considering there are unopened VE SS's running 11's on the strip!

Enjoy!

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as a newbie, thought I would contribute to this..the story as told to me by one PBrock and also contributed to by Harry Firth during a chat at a Holden Club meet last year

The LJ Torana XU1 V8 project was thought up by Firth (according to Harry it was NEVER XU2 for LJ...always LJ XU1 V8) starting with a 253 in a Torana but quickly replaced by a 308 (as was suggested by PB)in the XU1 that HDT had on loan from Holden. GMH engineering then got involved with the project and part changes were done to suit the vehicle (for durability and production purposes). 2 more Toranas were fitted up with 308s after this as part of testing and were driven around by HDT and GMH personnel.

The furore about 160mph supercars blew up and the project canned. Quite funny when I look back at it...as I was a 20 yo at the time....driving a modified HT Bathurst 350 Monaro (probably good for around 140-145 mph)

Anyway back to XU2. The forthcoming LH model Torana was built on a larger body and the 308 version was going to be stickered the XU2. I have a LH Torana service manual with the external ornamentation showing a XU2 sticker with 'PO L31' (dunno if this link will work)

http://i6.photobucke...

that model is also shown clearly as 'SLR/5000'. Hope that helps

oh...and one final thing. I know Norm Darwin too!
I worked with him at GMH

cheers

Smitty

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Smitty
Funny u say harry says it was only called V8 XU-1
Cause the story Harry did in A.M.C Mag Issue 9 He
Wanted to call it XU-2 and in the story He Refers to
it as the XU-2.
Now when the car got Canned,the name for it was not
Finalised,So we will never know if it was V8 XU-1
Or XU-2.
Now to me the LH been called the XU-2 was a afterthought
By GMH and cause of the Supercar Scare they stayed
away from the name,them Pics of the LH Torana with
the XU-2 Stickers on it,is Just a Mock up Done by the
GMH Design Department,you should know that.
You worked there,and Norn Darwin did work there to
Norm worked where the 3-GMH V8 LJ XU-1's were built
The R & D Workshop he worked as a Accountant there
and Norm Darwin told Eddie L Ford they were all Sold
the V8 Prototypes.
The Orange GMH V8 LJ Prototype was Sold,But Turned back into a 6Cyl,with a Single Carby,Still with Big tank and
Twin fillers,u should know that to Smitty. And was Sold
at a holden Dealer in Vic,i know the Vic Rego on the
Orange Car and done research on it,and sent the info to Holden,So Orange GMH was never destroyed
The Green GMH V8 Prototype,well that is a Mystery
Cause you dont here nothing about that,So thats in Storage by GMH or might of Did the Last Ride Down the Crash
Barrier at Lang Lang.
The pink GMH V8 LJ was Sold Complete with 308 still in it
and moved inter state and Got Rego in that State as a V8 LJ
In 1974, So no Drama with that.
GMH need to open up on the Info, Like Ford did on the
Phase 4 GTHO XA Falcon's.
Why hide it now 36 years Later,Holden Fans think they
are still out then and the other Half think they
were destroyed.
As i said i sent a pic,a Vic Roads Archive Check i Did
on the Orange GMH V8 LJ to Holden.
So there u are Smitty,some Proof that the Orange V8
LJ was not destroyed.
To me the Poor V8 LJ is like the roswell incident
But the truth is out there.
Mr. X File

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hmm...
dunno about any magazine comment (is AMC that new car mag?)
but have just reported what Harry said to me. Guess you can't always believe what you read. ...

and the pics with the XU2 sticker?...dunno about a mockup
but they came from the LH Torana Service manual. Can't see GMH sticking stuff in from mockups (not based on my knowledge of GMH Engineering or P&A policies)

can't comment re what happened to the actual cars...as I don't know . Are they busted or still around..? who knows

and for the record Norm Darwin worked in Experimental Engineering, I worked in Forward Model Costing

hth

Smitty

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Now Smitty
A.M.C Mag=Australian Muscle Car Magazine ok
Now they did a Story on the V8 LJ XU-1 Prototypes
And Harry Firth Narrated the story for A.M.C Mag
Mark Oastler is the Editor of the mag,Harry Supplied Pics of the Yellow HDT LC V8 XU-1,Vic Rego Number(KSN.116)
and a Confidential Letter to Joe Felice about what he
wanted to be put in the V8 LJ to make the LJ Successful in Competition.
Get a Copy,a great read and great Story by Harry Firth
or should i not Believe every thing i read.
Now the LH V8 was going to be Called the XU-2 but as a after thought from the Original XU-2(V8 LJ),But holden stayed away from the Name,Cause of the Super Car Scare.
The LH Service Manual Pic that shows the XU-2 Stickers,that you have Posted,i seen that before,Did you know that them Stickers were made in 1972 for the V8 LJ,They were Manufactured by a Label Company in Vic for the 200 V8 LJ's
when the LJ V8 was Canned,they were moved on to the,Might of Been LH XU2 that went on to become the LH SLR5000(L34).
So LH XU2 was a never been Car like the LJ XU-2 V8 was,
But there was 3-GMH V8 LJ XU-1's
1-Strike Me Pink
1-Lone "O" Ranger
1-Lime Green Metallic
and Harry Firth's Yellow LC HDT V8
If the V8 LJ XU-1 was never Canned,then we would know for sure what it was Called,but cause it was Canned,we will never know,But there was 200 big XU-2 Decals made for it
?????
You cant Comment on the V8 LJ been Destroyed or not,Because of the GMH Cofidential agreement you signed,as all GMH Employees sign,But how long do they last,a Lifetime.
The V8 LJ are 36 years ago,its not the Roswell UFO,its time to open up i say,Ford did in 1972,They said they Sold the 4-XA GTHO Phase 4's and No Kick back from the Goverment then or now?????????
Well Norm told Eddie L Ford,Editor of Custom Rodder Magazine
that the GMH V8 LJ XU-1's were Sold and not Destroyed,i have spoke to Eddie by phone,he comfirms this as well.
And i have uncovered stuff on the GMH Orange V8 LJ XU-1
and the GMH Strike Me Pink V8 LJ XU-1,i sent the Stuff on the Orange V8 LJ to Holden,so they know the Orange car was Sold by a GMH Dealer in Vic,But the V8 was Pulled out and only a 6Cyl put in.
I know the Engine Number and chassis number on the Orange V8 LJ and its Vic Rego Number,the Pink V8 LJ is ongoing investigation at the Minute.
And there is GMH Engineering Department Drawings of the V8 LJ,Called 35XW7 Special Export Vehicle,i have some.
Dated 2/June/1972
So GMH were going to make V8 LJ to send overseas to be called Special Export Vehicles ????
There u are Smitty a bit more info for ya,Please get a Copy of Issue 9 A.M.C Mag on the V8 XU-1 Story by harry firth a great read.
Mr. X FILES

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Did you know Bob Tooley?
____________________________________________________________________
[http://gallery.oldho...|me shed...]
[http://www.youtube.c...|Hillclimb for anything.]

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[http://gallery.oldho...|me shed...]

Some action shots from your old work place would be pretty special, Smitty. We'd all like a peek at some history.

rusty@oldholden.com

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Since the subject is recurring I've made an XU-2 H Page with a link to this thread.

http://holdenpaedia....

Any images, anecdotes or info can be added there.

T

Shed
Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

Not sure why you'd bother T, most of this thread is rubbish
bit like the old L34 thread *sighs*

Leroy

Email
[http://gallery.oldho...|Trim Colours & Codes]
[http://gallery.oldho...|Paint Colours & Codes]

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Email
[http://gallery.oldho...|Oldholden Paint & Trim Colours & Codes]

I know precious little about XU-2's so if you'd look the page over and write something tangible
it would be appreciated.

Let me know if you want any help posting up the info.

Any images would be appreciated.

T

Shed
Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

OK T
if you want to see a Pic of the GMH Orange V8 LJ XU-1
the pic was taken at Bathurst 1973,it was Drove up to the Moutain By Joe Felice,Joe was the Boss at the R & D Workshop at that Time Frame.
Now you ring Phase Three Posters on
02-98742141
There Address is GPO BOX 1503
NSW,2001
Ask For
Bathurst XU-1 Toranas
A Photographic History Book
By Stephen Stathis
on page 130 in the Book there is a Pic of the GMH Orange V8 LJ XU-1 that Joe Felice Drove,the Pics taken at Bathurst 1973 in the same Pic there is Colin Bonds No.24 LJ HDT XU-1 and a Gold 4-Door Standard HQ,i Guess owned by a HDT Employee.
So there u are a Pic of the GMH Orange V8 LJ XU-1,the
Guy that did the Book dident realise until i rang him up and told him that it was in there.
You can see the Left hand Side Twin Filler,and the Orange V8 LJ has Sprintmasters on it,and Flax Interior,The Colour of the Orange Lj is Lone "O" Ranger with White Interior(Flax)rare combo as most Orange LJ XU-1 had Black Interior.
I bet there a Rush now to get the Book,So there u are a pic of the Rare as XU-2 Orange GMH V8 LJ.
Regards Mr. X Files

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I need non-copyright images for H.

Feel free to add any info that you feel is factually based to the page.

It would be great if you could get a valid login.

T

Shed
Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

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T

My Shed

Holdenpaedia, they're the brakes Mate.

"most of this thread is rubbish"
-------------
Not like the rest of the interweb.
____________________________________________________________________
[http://gallery.oldho...|me shed...]
[http://www.youtube.c...|Hillclimb for anything.]

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______________________________________________
[http://gallery.oldho...|me shed...]

Circloton Why you read the Thread if its rubbish.
Go buy the Torana Book from Phase Three Posters
and Look at Page 130, as i said you will see the pic of the Orange GMH V8 LJ XU-1 Torana(Joe Felice).
So much for Car been Destroyed,Holden Canned the V8 LJ on
June 30 1972,But Joe felice still Driving the GMH Orange V8 LJ XU-1 to the 1973 Bathurst ?????
And then GMH Pulls the 5.0Litre out,puts a 6Cyl in it
and Sells it in Vic at a GMH Dealer in 1973.
So Thread that Circloton.
Mr. X Files

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Circ was only quoting what Mr Jones said a few posts above his... Circ hasn't made it clear whether he agrees or not...

Cheers...Dave

"Search more, Post less"

>E-mail Me
Qute's Shed

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Cheers...Dave

"Search more, Post less"

>E-mail Me
Qute's Shed

Ok Dave
I misread circlotron.
Problem with the V8 XU-1,or LJ XU-2
Whatever it was going to be Called
if GMH had been more Honest with all
the info,wouldent have all this
speculation going on.
Like your Quote dave
Search more,Post Less.
Well get that Torana Book,Dave u will see
The Orange V8 LJ XU-1
Mr. X Files

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Nah, I was only kidding about it being rubbish. I wouldn't have read the entire thread if I wasn't actually quite interested in the whole thing. I hope one or two of the cars actually still do exist.
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now listen carfully there is no holden xu-2 but there was suposed to be in 73 a 350 v8 chev was supposed to go in it but the government wouldnt allow the production of 3 different cars that year the phase 4 gtho falcon the xu-2 torana and a valiant something i forgot the name but it was the car that never was so you are sort of right and wrong at the same time hope i could settle your agument and if not flog him

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Nice pun: carfully instead of carefully.

Please sign up & join the site/forum with a recognisable name. That way we'll be prepared for your illiterate, barely intelligible, un-informed but know-it-all attitude. The ACTUAL info related to your garbled nonsense is widely available on this site and in all sorts of places around the 'web.

HKing, exasperated.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

I have an XU-2 ashtray !
An original from the Holden design department.
Would suit an LH/LX dash.

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I am led to belive that an XU-2 LJ GTR torana did come out of the holden co. Reason being is my old man had a LJ GTR with a 202 red motor with tripple stromberg 175 CDI but like most blokes they were to quick and it ended up being trown into a bridge at 90mph the engine was salvaged along with carbys. But the thing is that on rebuild of the donk the 3575 cam had XU-2 D stamped into it if anyone nows or have heard of anything please post a response. And would anyone be able to give me a price on a complete set or stromberg carbys 175 CDI 'bathurst' with links and manafold kept in mint con with new o rings?

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I can't help dude, but posts with a stand-out title might get your question in front of a few more knowledgable eyes...

HKing of Rosewood.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

Correct me if I am wrong but I think there is a prototype XU-2 in a motor museum in the Adelaide Hills up towards Birdwood way. Check it out and explode the myth.

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in 1973 hdt raced a v8 lj torana and called it the hdt v8 sedan. the race results are published in the fev antonio gtr-xu1 book. this racecar held track records and also had i think 7 dnf.the motor was set back into the cabin and boasted the webber carbys used on the lh l34. it also had ugly flares grafted front and back.peter brock complained about the brakes and harry firth said he would fix it. when brocky got back in harry had bolted a block of wood to the brake pedal and told him to use both feet. the xu1 was painted the same colours as the 1972 lj but had number 10 on it. google for pics of this car. in 1973 several v8 lj toranas were raced.

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Buy a DVD called the history of the HDT
see and listen to both harry firth and peter brock tell it how it was

and if anyone knows how to get a hold of larry perkins, ask him cos he drove one

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I beleive there is a GTR XU2 sitting on display in the Birdwood Motor Museum Adelaide . It is very lower sleek 2 door, possibly silver(blue).
My recollection was that it was banned from being put into production and from that the SLR 5000 and A9X were born . I miss those days bloody orsm

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Nah, that's a GTR-X. COMPLETELY different animal - well, mostly...

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Cheers...Dave

"Search more, Post less"

>E-mail Me
Qute's Shed

...and I still want one!!

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Q-ball.

"Clay is for racing on,Tar is how you get there!!"
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3401

I'm greedy Q_BALL,I'll take 2!

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Redbeard

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Email me

MARKING THREAD

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383HGBrougham
(Postcode 3207 - Home of the mighty Holden)

Hi to all, Holden did in fact make a few GTR XU-2's 10 to be exact but only know of 5 as there is a guy here in Adelaide who has one which he bought at auction in 1975 with all it's paper work to verify it's an XU-2 and only comes out once a month to put fuel in her, all XU-2's were Red and Black like the XU-1 but the difference between the XU-1 and the XU-2 is the front chrome air dam the XU-2 is bigger and wider than the XU-1. Hope that helps.

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Hi
the LJ V8'S your talking about Painted in Red&Black were Built by Holden Adelaide Dealer in Adelaide,and i Believe they only Built 5 of them not 10,as there was one in Street Machine Magazine in 1983,one of the Holden Adelaide Built V8 LJ's,and in the Street Machine Magazine Story it says there was 5 Built and ok by the South Australian Road Traffic Board,GMH turned a blind eye to the Dealer that Built them,as the Dealer did the Warranty on these 5 Cars,they could still be floating around in Adelaide these cars or in South Australia.

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I'm really surprised that this Urban Myth / Legend is still around nearly 40 years after the event!

GMH had an XU-2 on the build plan but the V8 Super Car scare from a Newspaper reporter ( Len Green ) killed off all the Hot GM , Ford & Chrysler cars around 1973 / 1974.

GMH did build a few ( 4 I think ? ) XU1's with V8's at that time but after Len Green's newspaper article they were "Disposed" of.

The XU-2 Decal Was made & I have seen 1 BUT it was never placed on a production car.

LJ Torana's were fitted with V8's for Some states Police Departments & also for the Victorian Sherrifs department ( I have seen one ) But they were NOT in any way an XU-2.

Peter Brock raced a Rally XU-1 with a V8 at least once BUT it was not an XU-2!

The XU-2 morphed into the SL/R5000 - Proof Positive is if you get a look at the GMH Factory Service manual and look at Page 1 - 77 It CLEARLY shows a LH Torana with an XU-2 Badge / Sticker !

End of Story!!!

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LOL - all this crap'n'nonsense about an LJ 'rana with a 308ci Holden V8. Did they also come out with factory Muncie boxes and Jack Brabhams personal gearknob?? Pfffttt.

Dudes, a stock 308 in an LJ is nothing to get excited about. Do some power to weight mathematics and you'll discover that your 6cyl VE dunnydoor has more power to weight. A hot 308 would have been a completely different story and IMHFO, Ace.

My silly point I'm trying to make is that a stock 60's/70's Holden V8 is slow and lazy. In stock form I reckon you are much better off with a six (for the serious orpers, the VK EFI 3.3 is the Rolls Royce)

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Cheers,

Emu

O.H.T.C. original member

Emu
A stock 308 in a LJ Torana its Power to Weight would be better than a standard 6Cyl VE Dore,as a VE Dore would be twice as heavy as a LJ Torana,the Standard 308 was putting out 240 HP about the same as the VE Dore in Power.
But remember when the V8 LJ came out,they had to be the same as the race car on the track in 1972,under C.A.M.S Rules there had to be 200 identical units made and sold to the public,and the V8 LJ XU-1 was putting out 271 HP-300 HP and with a 2.78 Detroit Locker Banjo Diff,and 13" Wheels and the V8 would rev to 7000 RPM in each gear,the car would do 170 MPH and did,Due to HDT Testing at the 1972 Easter Bathurst Race in April 1972,and you can work out by the Motor 7000 RPM in top gear with its Diff ratio of 2.78 and 13" wheels you can work out by a formula that it works out to 170 MPH.

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Skimmin over this post might give one the impression that it is a rock solid arguement. I believe theres a few flaws though.

Firstly, weight: VE 1690kg, LJ 4dr 1061kg (GTR 1100kg, maybe 1200kg with a 308 squeezed in). Nope, not double.

Secondly, output: standard 3.6 VE motor 180kw, equivalent to 240hp SAE (or close to 320bhp), standard LJ era 308 about 240bhp = 180hp SAE = 130kw. Basically, horses clearly aren't horses.

Revability (word?): the VE motor will happily rev to 6000 right off the sales room floor, but that standard 308 would've been wheezing if it was pushed to 5000rpm.

Top speed: maybe 170mph is theoretically possible if the thing is up on blocks or sitting on dyno rollers. Out on a road or strip though, and wind resistance has a very large effect. 170mph (273kmh) would simply not be possible. LJ sixes (in full race spec on Conrod Straight, of all places in the nation), would still only get to about 230 or so. Rev that motor on any test bench, and put the steepest diff ratio you like in between 13" wheels - and you'll STILL have no chance of shoving that clumsy little mutant LJ chassis up to such high speeds.

Emu was, afterall, very clearly talking about the stock 308 mill, so the power to weight views he posted make perfect sense.

We could also go look at some acceleration stats, but I think the standard, portly VE would still match an LJ with standand 308 in a straight line.

HKing o' Rosewood.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

Rosewood
Harry Firth's HDT tested the Yellow LC XU-1 V8 Prototype at the 1972 Easter Bathurst,driven by Colin Bond,and going by the tacho hitting 7000 RPM in top gear,running a 2.78 Banjo diff center and 13" Wheels it worked out the Car did 170 MPH down conrod straight,and larry perkins did road testing on highways with no speed limits back in 1972 and hit 7000 RPM in top gear,so it did get to 170 MPH,and the 200 V8 LJ XU-1's that was going to be built by Holden,Would be Homo under C.A.M.S Rules of 1972 would of had Hot 308 V8's in them,putting out 271 HP - 300 HP,the 308's were Blueprinted&Balanced, with head work a Full Race Cam and F5000 Flat Top Pistons,and a 2.78 Detroit Locker Banjo Diff and 13" wheels,with that ratio it would get to that speed,and due to the LJ XU-1's light weight body it would get to 170 MPH and HDT Proved it at the 1972 Easter Bathurst Race and open road tests in 1972.

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Ok, so a hot, race spec car can go fast but just read what YOU have written above (in a barely decipherable posts), and then read what we've typed....

"Dudes, a stock 308 in an LJ is nothing to get excited about. Do some power to weight mathematics and you'll discover that your 6cyl VE dunnydoor has more power to weight. A hot 308 would have been a completely different story and IMHFO, Ace."

"Emu was, afterall, very clearly talking about the stock 308 mill, so the power to weight views he posted make perfect sense."

Blathering on repeatedly about something out of context is just silly. If you haven't picked the difference between stock and race (oblivious of homologation 'special' models), and you aren't familiar with SAE vs DIN bhp info, then just take a breath and move on.

HKing - of Rosewood.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

HKing
The V8 LJ that Holden were going to release were HOT 308's not standard 308's,Due to C.A.M.S Rules ok,they were only going to make 200 V8 LJ XU-1's with Hot 308's.
Any way a LJ Torana with a Standard 308,putting out 240HP and with its far less weight than a VE Dore with its 240HP V6 and 650kg extra weight,would not be faster that a LJ Torana with a Standard 308 on board due weight,or cant you do the maths to realise the weight,there no way a VE V6 Dore with its more weight would be faster than a Standard 308 in a LJ Torana,Derrrrrrrr.

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What part of this don't you understand? "...you aren't familiar with SAE vs DIN bhp info, then just take a breath and move on." All you had to do was read and think.
Basically, if you can't (or won't) consider the context of the statistic, you will never get a clear picture. In this case the output figures really are significant to the situation.

240bhp back in the day is a LOT different to 240hp now. Those old Red 308s put out about 130kw in today's money. The early VE's produce 185kw.
True, the LJ was relatively light with a 6 on board, but I think that the drivetrain ratios and sheer output of a the VE's 3.6 (approx 221ci) would still take the heavier C'dore body to a small but distinct lead over pretty much any given distance against a stock 308 in an LJ. Auto vs auto, manual vs manual - take your pick.

HKing - no statistician.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

The Red 308 motor was putting out 250 Horsepower at 5000 RPM,which is 186KW at 5000 RPM. As you say the VE's were puting out 185KW,So the red 308 Motor is 1 KW more powerfull that the VE 3.6 Litre Motor,So a LJ XU-1 with its Heaps Lighter weight than A VE Dore,regardless if the LJ was Manual or Auto and the VE was Manual or Auto,the LJ Would beat it,Due to its weight advantage it has over the VE Dore,its not Rocket Science to work that out,i cant believe you under Quoted the Red 308 Motor KW Power-130 KW, Ha Ha that is a Laugh,shows you how much you know about the Red 308 V8 Motor KW's,You Quoted the 4.2 Red V8 Motor,that was 130 KW at 4800 RPM,not the Red 308 V8 Motor,it was 186 KW at 5000 RPM,please never under quote the Red 308 V8 Motor, its KW Power-its 186 KW at 5000 RPM,please remember this HKING of Rosewood,im guessing you are not from the time frame of the Red 308 V8 Motor,to not realise it was a 186 KW at 5000 RPM.

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I'll spell it out for you:

The way they measured engine output power in the olden days (back when you and I were little) CHANGED.
It changed IN A VERY BIG WAY. Keeping up?

I DON'T mean when they changed from imperial to metric terminology. I mean changing from GROSS to NET output.

Are you still with me?
If you're not, then you won't understand the next point.

Let's proceed anyway...

The gross output (measured without considering the drain of ancilliary equipment) was a large number. That's why the old point-ignition, small valved, crudely balanced, badly inducted Red 308 motors SEEMED powerful on paper.

The industry changed to measuring & recording engine power output in a different way. The net output (measured allowing for full exhaust system, cooling fan and other power draining componentry) is what we have used ever since.

Here is an example:
What used to be called a 250hp engine, was realistically only producing about 180hp (130kw).
If we used the old-fashioned way of measuring power output for an early VE C'dore it would be over 320hp.

So talk about the power output using the old language or the new language. As long as you don't mix the two up.

Put 320hp (in old language) through an electronically controlled set of modern 6sp auto box ratios and you would see a VE easily match a bog stock, wheezy Red 250hp (in the old language) 308 in an LJ Torrie.

Ditto for the VE's 185kw (in the new language) versus the LJ with 130kw. Same cars & engines, but accurate use of the important terminology.

Sorry for going a bit technical on yer ass there, champ, but if you wanna talk with numbers you better know HOW they're crunched.

HKing - of basic maths.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

In the front of the Monaro Facts its pointed out that the 300hp 350's in the early monaros are more like 175kw (down 50kw) and that a HSV 215i would have roughly 375hp if measured in the old language instead of 280 odd it has under the Net system.

Michael, old mate just has to look at 1/4 mile times 130kw 253 17.9secs 125kw 3.8 VN 16secs that's the true HP test, even the mighty 308 with its 186kw could only manage 16.9 in an HJ, but I don't think he wants to hear it.

Leroy

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250 Horsepower at 5000 RPM would of been measured at the Flywheel on the Dyno on the Red 308 V8 Motor at Holden in 1972,the same as the V6 VE Dore Motor would be measured at the Flywheel on the Dyno in 2010, 250 Horsepower back in 1972 is the same as 250 Horsepower in 2010 or 186KW in today speak.
The LJ Torana with a Standard Red 308 V8 Motor on board is 620KG Lighter than a V6 VE Dore,that is fact.
620KG is alot of weight to be carrying,the LJ Torana is lighter than a modern day WRX,you wouldent think so but check the weight of a WRX to a LJ Torana,that is fact to.
Any way this forum is about the 3-V8 LJ XU-1 Prototypes that Holden Built,and if the Project had gone ahead the 200 LJ XU-1 V8's Built were getting worked 308's not standard 308's,due to the C.A.M.S Rules of 1972,as of 1972 C.A.M.S Rules they had to make 200 identical units to sell to the public to get the V8 LJ XU-1 Home to race it,and Harry Firth wanted a Hot 308 in that Beast.

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250 Horsepower back in 1972 is the same as 250 Horsepower in 2010

oh codswallop

Prior to 1972 most American automakers rated their engines in terms of SAE gross horsepower (defined under SAE standards J245 and J1995). Gross hp was measured using a blueprinted test engine running on a stand without accessories, mufflers, or emissions control devices. It therefore reflected a maximum, theoretical value, not the power of an installed engine in a street car. Gross horsepower figures were also subject to considerable adjustment by carmakers: the power ratings of mass-market engines were often exaggerated, while those for the highest-performance muscle car engines were frequently underrated.

Starting in 1971 automakers began to quote power in terms of SAE net horsepower (as defined by standard J1349). This reflected the rated power of the engine in as-installed trim, with all accessories and standard intake and exhaust systems. By 1972 U.S. carmakers quoted power exclusively in SAE net hp. The change was meant to 'deflate' power ratings to assuage the auto insurance industry and environmental and safety lobbies, as well as to obfuscate the power losses caused by emissions-control equipment.

SAE net ratings, while more accurate than gross ratings, still represent the engine's power at the flywheel. Contrary to some reports, it does not measure power at the drive wheels.

Because SAE gross ratings were applied liberally, at best, there is no precise conversion from gross to net. Comparison of gross and net ratings for unchanged engines show a variance of anywhere from 40 to 150 horsepower. The Chrysler 426 Hemi, for example, in 1971 carried a 425 hp gross rating (often considered to be underrated) and a net rating of 375 hp.

hp (DIN)
This is the power measured according to the German standard DIN 70020. It is measured at the flywheel, and is in practical terms equivalent to the SAE net figure. However, be aware that DIN "horsepower" may in fact be expressed in PS (Pferdestärke) - see "Metric horsepower" below.

SAE-certified horsepower
In 2005, the Society of Automotive Engineers introduced a new test procedure (J2723) for engine horsepower and torque. The procedure eliminates some of the areas of flexibility in power measurement, and requires an independent observer present when engines are measured. The test is voluntary, but engines completing it can be advertised as "SAE-certified".

Many manufacturers began switching to the new rating immediately, often with surprising results. The rated output of Cadillac's Northstar V8 jumped from 440 hp (328 kW) to 469 hp (350 kW) under the new tests, while the rating for Toyota's Camry 3.0 L 1MZ-FE V6 fell from 210 hp (157 kW) to 190 hp (142 kW). The first engine certified under the new program was the 7.0 L LS7 used in the 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Certified power rose slightly from 500 hp (373 kW) to 505 hp (377 kW).

http://www.wheelsofi...

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No, output power WAS NOT measured the same way in 1972 as it is in 2010. HOW and WHY have already been explained for you, and not just by me.

No, this forum IS NOT "about the 3-V8 XU-1 Prototypes that Holden built". It is here to discuss all sorts of car related stuff, and also to hopefully share some constructive information.

Look up what 'gross' actually means.
Then look up what 'net' actually means.

If you don't (or you do, but don't understand the big tricky words) you'll continue to post the same foolish, uninformed and barely literate posts as you have been.

They might have been reliable and easy to 'hot up', but compared to relatively high efficiency modern 6cyl motors, stock Red 308 motors were slugs. The facts that you choose to ignore (even when dumbed down a bit) make it patently clear for us to see.

HKing - loving my slow, heavy old car.

P.S. This is a reply. It is a post in a thread. There are many threads on this forum. There are many forums on the internet. The internet has a nickname: the worldwide web, from whence we get the handy 'www' prefix thingee bit in the URL bar space bit.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

I have an XU-2...
:o)

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

This Page on the Forum is about the XU2's i believe,????
As i said your beloved V6 VE Dore is 620kg more in weight than a LJ XU-1 with a Standard Red 308 V8 Motor on board,that is alot of weight the V6 VE Dore is carrying compared to the V8 LJ XU-1,so even if the V6 VE Dore has a more poweful Donk,it has a Weight Disadvantage compared to the V8 LJ XU-1,so they might be on a Evennnnnnnnnnnnn Parrrrrrrrr in speed. Or do u think 620kg of extra weight is nothing,remember the LJ XU-1 is only pulling 13" Wheels,and using a close ratio M21 Gearbox and depending what Diff you wanted to run 308 or 2.78 Ratio. It would have good pick up due to its light weight,any way this page on this forum is about the V8 LJ XU-1 Prototypes,that had Hot 308's on board.

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Nicely dodged x 2:
A. it was always patently clear I was part of the mid-thread discussion about the stock 308 engine, AND
B. that you have been 'owned' on the fundamental facts of measuring power.
I'm teaching my kids debating skills tomorrow. I trust you are comfortable with me not modelling your efforts to them.

HKing - of Power-to-Weight ratio.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

Well u better Teach them that a Car that is Carring 620kg is more heavy than a Car that is not carrying 620kg,and get u to lift that weight in front of them,so they realise it is alot of weightttttttttttttttttttt.

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I will, however, use your posts as exemplars for spelling instruction.

HKing - learning from both your maffs AND inglish, n' that.

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'i'm definately shore that guage wont work with my tuff bango diff and Opal sydcrome box,if it goes though my grill,and I put the breaks on I realize its better with the glimer belt & tunned holly and Ederbrock duel feul webber gaurds, wiht etc primmer.'

Go the Personal Attack's ya Hero,Least i know how heavy 620kg is,maybe u should go to a Gym and try and lift 620kg,as you seem to think its nothing in weight.
Learning from your lack of understading on how heavy 620kg is.

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Rosewood
The V8 LJ was a XU-1 and the LJ XU-1 was lighter than the LJ GTR. The LJ XU-1 was 1048kg and the 308 V8 was only 22kg more than the 202 Red JP Engine.
So total weight was 1070kg still heaps lighter than a VE Dore 1690kg,so its 620kg Lighter than a VE Dore.
HDT proved the V8 Prototype did 170 MPH on Conrod Straight at the 1972 Easter Bathurst,as it hit 7000 RPM in top gear on Conrod Straight,thats not on Jack Stands in a shed,thats on the race track in race conditions,Buy the Australian Muscle Cars Magazine,issue 9 the V8 XU-1 Story Narrated by Harry Firth,and Harry tells you about the V8 XU-1 Prototype hitting 7000 RPM in top gear on Conrod Straight,and as Harry would of used the Formula of 7000 RPM with a 2.78 Diff Ratio and 13" wheels it works out to be 170 MPH,and it hit 7000 RPM in top gear,Proven by HDT,ask Harry Firth or Larry Perkins or Colin Bond.

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it comes out once a month to put fuel in it, wheres the fuel going?
or is he driving to Tailem Bend to put fuel in it?

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Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy car parts, and that makes me happy :)

what i heard from my dads mate who owns a xu-2 rep he said 3 xu-2 were made 2 crashed and one went missing and roumers have it that its in new zeland but its probly wraped around a tree,, R.I.P the xu-2

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There were 4 V8 LJ XU-1's Built by Holden in 1972,
One Lone o Ranger Orange
One Strike Me Pink
One Lime Green Metallic
One White

There two storys,Holden put all of them into the Crash Barrier at Lang Lang,and the other Story is they pulled the 308 V8's out of them and Sold them as 6Cyl LJ XU-1's.
The Lone o Ranger LJ XU-1 was Sold as a 6 Cyl in 1974,that is Fact now,and was Stolen in Victoria in 1985 and never recovered,still listed as stolen on Vic Roads Records,that is Fact.

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Love ya work areswipe!!

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Redbeard

Stomp-n-Steer
Redbeards Weirdo Shed
Email me

I believe though that the SLR5000 was known in pre production as the GTRXU2, and I believe that the option code for the SLR5000 IS XU2..
:o)

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

The SLR5000 was never know as the GTRXU2,The GMH Styling Department did some mock up LH Torana's with Big XU2 Decals on the front guards,some one in the Styling Department might of flirted with XU2 as a name,But GMH stayed away from the name Due to the 1972 Supercar Scare. In 1972 the Big XU2 Decals were made in South Melbourne for GMH,they made up 200 sets of XU2 Decals for the 200-V8 LJ XU-1's that would of got built in 1972,Holden was only going to make 200-V8 LJ XU-1's,the amount to get the V8 LJ XU-1 to be Homo under 1972 C.A.M.S Rules,so they could Race it,it would been interesting if the V8 LJ XU-1 had been released in 1972,what name Holden would of called them,as they had 200 sets of Big XU2 Decals made in 1972,we will never know for sure,thanks to Evan Green and his 160MPH Supercar Soon Newspaper Front Page Article in 1972 that killed the V8 LJ XU-1 and the XA Phase 4 and E55 R/T 340 V8 4 Speed Charger.

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If you are so knowledgable, I reckon a sign in would cement your comment.
Perhaps then if you know all, you should inform the Queensland Torana Car Club of your expertise.
(5th paragraph down).
http://www.gmh-toran...
This is also taken from GMH-Torana.com...

"SLR5000 is a special vehicle package (option code XU2) based upon an LH and LX SL/R. Basically the same principle as a HZ Sandman (XX7/XU3) or a HQ GTS 4 door (XV4). Nothing special really, just a sports version of the standard car, much like an SS Commodore is today. "

Big smile---BIIGG SMILE

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

Been covered before by Street Machine in the 1990's and By A.M.C Magazine in issue 9 about the V8 LJ XU-1 and the XU2 Name,and if you read the XU-1 Bible by Fiv,he says in there about the 200-XU2 Decals been made for the LJ V8 Torana's.
Leo says that some of the Guys at Styling fooled around with the XU2 Name for the LH SLR5000,but it was never going to happen,the XU2 Name came from Harry Firth Originally,he Code Named the V8 LJ XU-1 Prototype that name,get a copy of Issue 9 A.M.C Magazine,The XU-1 V8 Story ok,u can read it in there about it,the XU2 name was originally ment for the V8 LJ XU-1,back in the day the HDT Boys used to caal the V8 LJ XU-1 the XU2 cause harry firth code named it back then,true fact.

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Like I said, if you believe this to be FACT, then please correct the Torana experts on the sites I listed, and I have also heard about the FACTORY HOLDEN parts manual with the XU-2 stickers.

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

I have a factory 1974 LH parts catalogue that has drawings of an LH with "XU2" decals on the side. That's a little more than a mock up and to me at least suggests the decision to call it SLR5000 was a last minute one.

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Cheers
David

aka hq308belmont

www.hq308.com

My Shed

I have a September 75 parts manual with supplement, which supercedes all including the L34 supplement.
I can't find the XU-2 stickers in it though, so perhaps it was destined to be called an XU-2, but as you say, changed at the last minute.

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

Styling at Holden,did tinker with XU2 Name for the LH Torana SLR5000,They droped the name due to the Heat of the Supercar Scare,thats why the Big XU2 Decals were put on some mock ups by styling,so the LH SLR5000 was looked at for the Name XU2,but originally Harry Firth code named the V8 LJ XU-1 as the XU2,and the HDT Boys used to refer it as the XU2 back in early 1972,Harry assumed the V8 would be called XU2 as a follow on from XU1,and Holden would call it that,so we will never know,and when LH came along,Styling looked at it again the name XU2,but after the Supercar Blow up,they dident go that route,so in ways XU2 is correct for LH as well,and as well for the V8 LJ,Leo says the V8 LJ XU-1 was going to be called XU-1 Seris 2,Ray Borrett says that the 200-XU2 Decals were made up for the 200- V8 LJ XU-1's,he states this in the A.M.C Magazine Issue 9,V8 XU-1 Story.
So i think we will never know 100%,but its funny the Big XU2 Decals were made in early 1972 when LJ was around,before LH Torana was about ????

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Hi I have been sitting on this set of centerline rims for so many years never took much notice of them till a friend how is a torana freak who looked into them and found out that they are from the original xu2 so if this is true do you no anyone who will bye

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Do you still have them.

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love this-keep it going!!!!hahaha

And yes "holden fan" sign in. It's like talking to the back of someones head!!

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Redbeard

Stomp-n-Steer
Redbeards Weirdo Shed
Email me

just checked the link I posted to the QTCC, it was only to the home page, this new link is directly to the LH info page....
http://www.qtcc.org....

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Cheers
John
:o)

Dislike me for who I am you may, like me for whom I'm not, you never will...
MY SHED

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