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Seat belt legal question?

Here's a scenario.

My HG monaro doesnt have rear seatbelts. Has Front ones.
Passes NSW rego no probs.
Rear seatbelts were a purchase option, so I have been told.....someone let me know if this is right or wrong....
Now.

Say I was to put aftermarket seatbelts in the rear of this car for saftey and well wishing or for whatever reason...

What happens when mr plod pulls me over because my rear passengers are not wearing them? Three passengers times a lot of points equals a lot more points and a pain in the wallet!

What do you think?

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The Law states that, if a seatbelt is available for the seating position that a person occupies, the person MUST wear the seatbelt.

Cheers...Dave
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Thank you for your response.
What would you do in this case? Install or not? And do you know if it is correct that they were an option?
regards

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But the law also states that if the person is over 18 then they are responsible for their actions and are liable for the fine

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Yep (from memory) it's a federal law too, in the federal traffic legislation. So all states must abide by/enforce it. Similar to BAC, all states must enforce drink driving laws. Don't know how the actual legal ranges are different from state to state (0.05 most states, 0.08 in NT), but you can't drink and drive Oz wide because of the same reason - it's an Oz wide law in the federal traffic legislation...

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Yeah, they were an option from about the HK on for rear seating positions.

By the HG, I'm fairly sure all the anchorage points were built in to the cars for outer lap/sash and centre lap belts.

Personally, yeah, I'd put them in....depends on how much you like your rear seat passengers I suppose....then again, blood is VERY hard to remove from a car's interior and most people are not keen to buy a vehicle that has had a fatality in it....

Cheers...Dave
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Thanks Dave, you crack me up. Smart and witty...You must be one for the ladies????

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Why ask the question? If you want to fit them for safety reasons, at least insist they are used. Seems a waste of money otherwise. Also I believe that if passengers are over a certain age (I think 16 or 18) they are actually responsible, and will cop the fine and points. As a last little point to remember, consider an 80kg weight being catapulted from the back seat into the front during an impact, this will take you out with the same force that the rear seat passenger is subjected to, so it's in the driver's best interest to ensure the crash test dummy sitting behind them is also wearing a seat belt.

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The LCGTRestoration is finished... it's on the road so time for a new handle. Look out for 71LCGTR

In QLD, drivers can get fined and points taken (one normally, two on double demerits, I think) if their passenger is not wearing a seat belt

EDIT: Forgot to mention, In QLD, NSW, VIC (one of, could be all or more than one), you also get done if you're the driver and your passenger is "Legally Intoxicated" (over 0.15 is medically said to be Intoxicated or the more preferred pissed!!)...

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It actually could be NSW where drivers get done for passengers. I know it's somewhere, I was done for it when a mate didn't have his on. 3 - 4 years ago now...

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Never thought of it like that, like the 50kg tool box hitting you in the head,tie it down if you don't need it. I see where your comming from.--- bogan.

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i wouldn't fit them the car doesn't need them. i don't have them in mine. you only loose points in qld if the passenger isan't wearing a seat belt if there under 16. my mate got done in the back of my astra the other week the cop didn't even talk to me.

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Cheers
Adam

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if the seat belts have never been fitted to the car you dont have to.my fc has never had belts fitted(and neither has the pontiac).the law is all vehicles must have front belts from mid 65.if belts are fitted you must wear them.have had this out with several cops and when they radio in have left. my sisters 1938 dodge hearse is going through qld rego at the moment no belts'no problem.it has a wooden frame body andthere is nowhere that is strong enough to support the ancorages. the vehicle only has to comply with the regulations for when it is built(exept for hot rods).

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I have 1938 Dodge hearse also in New Zealand have you any pictures

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my hr passes NSW rego with no rear belts. to put them in they will have to be engineered! so keep that in mind.
im planing on puting in commodore roller belts front and rear, hate those ****** throw over things..

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i'm pretty sure that the seatbelt adr came in in 1969, before that rear seatbelts were an option, however i was restoring a '32 roadster which had nobelkts or indicators etc but to engineer i had to put them all in so???

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A long time ago, Ambo's united across the land and insisted they were medics not search and rescue, They rioted, run amuck and looted the drug cabinets...This **** went on and on until the Pollies crumbled ....Made it compulsory to wear seat belts. I know.

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Here in Vic they have bought in a law that every passenger thats not wearing a seatbelt costs you 2 points and a certain fine because the driver is now responsible for the passengers, not sure if NSW is the same now?

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G'day

My 1970 HT had no rear belts, but front ones only. My 66' HR had them fitted 'later'. My understanding ,as I WAS there at the time. was that front belts were introduced, then rear ones after a short pause. In mid to late 1969, I think, in time for Xmas that year.

It put the kibosh on kneeling and looking out the back window...sigh...

It also put the kibosh on decapitating a front seat person with your already lifeless torso at 75 mph as the car slammed into a tree....

Such memories....

Cheers

On the Seventh Day, The Gods created Sh*t, and on the Eighth day, Ford made it move.....

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On the Seventh Day, The Gods created Sh*t, and on the Eighth day, Ford made it move.....

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IN nsw, you loose 3 points for not wearni a seatbelt and 3 points off your licence for a passenger and so does your passenger if they are of driving age.It make no sense not to have them so reguardless if it came out with them in the back you should put them in!

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Hi,
In the back of my monaro I have found four lower seat belt anchor points, two under the seat and two on the wheel arches. If the outer belts were of the lap sash type then I dont seem to be able to find the upper anchor points. On the parcel shelf there are two holes that look to be the right size for seat belt bolts but are only in thin metal. I know some belts had large washers to spread the load and maybe that is the case here. Can someone in the know fill me in please or put me onto somewhere where the info is.
Thank you.

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This sounds exactly like an LC I looked at a while back.

In NSW at least, you can bolt static lap seatbelts into original anchorages without an engineering certificate. I don't remember whether the anchorages in an HG Monaro are evenly spaced and bolt the middle belt to the same bolts as the outboard ones or if the 4 anchorages you've found are only for the outboard belts because the middle 2 are too close together for the middle belt.

The same applies to EHs, etc. that have front anchorages in the floor for lap belts.

To bolt lap/sash (static or retractable) into those positions or fit a middle one if it needs new anchorages, it has to have an engineering certificate. Not sure about other states.

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I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Very good point Athol. If the anchorages are there, you can bolt the belts in and go. If just the holes are there and you have to make ANY modification, no matter how small, you will need to get an engineer's certificate to cover yourself legally.

Cheers...Dave
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Studying your conversations here to find some info:
Is it legal to add seatbelts to a bench seat to carry more than three kids? If not, where does one go for an engineer certificate?
- a potentially grateful fan

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I doubt you'll get a certificate for more than 3 people (of any size) on one bench seat in any car.

Your State's rego people should have a list of approved Vehicle Modification Engineers if you call them or look up their website.

Cheers...Dave

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What model Munro?

Cheers...Dave
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I find that if you belt them hard enough, then they don't WANT to be passengers in the Munro, therefore no seatbelts are required for them... :P

Those that still wanna ride after a good belting I take home to play with... :P

Victa.

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".

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Victa.

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".

I'm thinking Tie Downs would be more appropriate than rear seat belts.

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Sorry Dave, it's a HG.

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OK, I'm fairly sure the outer/upper belt anchorages for the rear belts are in the rear pillar, under the hoodlining.

Have a feel around the bottom ½ of the pillar (or CAREFULLY remove the hoodlining but it may tear as it will be old and will be brittle around the edges) to see if you can find the holes/nuts. I'm not 100% sure but am fairly sure the HG's already had the captive nuts for rear belts from the factory.

Cheers...Dave
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I just checked my HK munro, It has holes in the parcel shelf but no nuts welded in. Also have a HG sedan here so i checked it and it's got holes with square nuts welded in, also on the parcel shelf as per the HK.
Hope it helps

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Hi, I just chucked a Houdini and went in through the boot. Got my arm right up the inside, above the level of the outside Monaro script badge, and I am pretty sure there are no holes or welded in nuts on the pillar.

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Ah, well my memory on that has obviously faded, sorry....the mounts must be in the parcel shelf.

That is one of the beauties of oldholden...if one of us makes a mistake, other will correct it.

Cheers...Dave
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i've done the same thing in my HK sedan and found the same thing, no upper rear belt mount...anywhere. but i have the four mounts on the floor under the rear seat.
i have put retractable belts into the front (klippan) and instantly learnt there should be a middle mount on the outer floors/lower pillar...that third part of the belt (on mine at least) if you only have 2 mounting points has a wide flat mounting plate that you are instructed to mount behind the already existing pillar mounting of the retractor assembly. i hope you got all that ;) i installed mine this way but they don't feel very comfortable at all. the lap part of the belt sits too high on the pillar side as it goes across your lap.
i have found an engineer locally (thanks streetmachine) who i will contact as soon as i can afford it, to install upper rear belt mounts (for retractable lap sash) and a third floor mount for the front.
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I could be wrong but.....I agree that front retractables need three mounting points instead of the two. The extra being to mount the retracting gear. But after that the belt should feed up through your existing upper mount, then down to the existing lower mount. Therefore when you put it on the belt goes from the clip back to the original upper and lower mounting points. That means the part that goes across your lap should be no different to the original.

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i know what you mean but as the lap belt pillar mount is on a long metal spacer plate it makes it sit about 45mm higher than your original specs. it can be rotated forward, more in line with the natural arc of the belt over your lap, but it still holds the pillar side too far away from the body. this annoyance may be due to the fact that i haven't driven a really old (i say 'really old' as my daily driver is a middle aged old VL, dying of cancer) car for a long time, but i tell you what, i need comfortable seat belts, and my kids will be in there with with me. i plan on fitting extra floor mounts. i will post a pic in my shed soon which will explain it simply.

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I have also heard a story where a German Shepherd decapacitated the driver when it was thrown from the back seat in a crash. That thought more than justifies the time taken to put a harness on my Shepherd and buckle her in every time I take her for a drive.

But back to the original question... there are some modifications to these old girls that take away from their character. Then there are others that simply improve them. I put seatbelts in the latter category. I'd be fitting them, and making sure they were worn.

Cheers,
Jason.

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This topic is of interest to me, so thought I'd throw another question onto the fire. The last owner of my EH had new bucket seats installed (and blue plated), but I'm changing back to a bench. I have an EH bench currently being blasted, repaired, modified (to fit behind a 5 speed shifter), and re-upholstered...taking the car down this weekend to have final measurements done for the cut-out before the seat gets covered. I'm going to have inertia seatbelts installed plus a middle lap belt for those odd occasions where I have two passengers (it's a ute).
My question is...will the new seatbelts have to have an engineering certificate? Is that something I will have to organise, or should it be something I'd expect as part of the job while the car is at the trimmers? Any idea how much that sort of thing costs?
Cheers, Scott

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as long as the belts are manufactured and fitted to australian standards - ie. existing mounts not changed then you won't need a mod plate. if you read my post above you can see how i will need a plate for my intended upgrade. for the record my car will carry passengers including my own kids, so it'll be done right. i can't tolerate people who won't wear seatbelts, especially in older, harder cars, you are dumb. people are squishy and were not designed to travel at (or instantly stop from) much more than 10-15km/h.

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That makes sense. I'm taking the car to the trimmers on Saturday to pull the buckets out and trial fit the bench, so we can check all the mounts then and see if we can use the existing mounts or will need to start from scratch (and hence get 'em blue plated).

Couldn't agree more about the whole seatbelt issue. Regardless of how good a driver any of us thinks we are, there's so many fools out on the roads to necessitate using the best safety features we can. I wouldn't put my liitle boy in a car if it didn't have seat belts fitted...end of story. I've seen too many people in accidents to ever take the chance.

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I grew up kneeling on the back seat gazing out the back window as the scenery belted past at 100 MPH as dad would navigate the old jelopy to our destination.
I've given up kneeling on the seat but i still dont wear a seatbelt (unless i'm up to no good,lol). Yes i ensure everyone else wears one as i wont cop a fine for them and my kids will wear one simply because i said; My dog however chooses to just do as she pleases, thats fine by me, just dont bite me.
Before you all shoot me outa the sky, ask yourself what impact my choices have on you....none. My children wear a belt at ALL times because i'm a responsible person :p

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> ask yourself what impact my choices have on you....none.

Actually, puter, they do have an impact on me. If you do have an accident and are thrown from the car, there are emergency staff who have to attend to you (some of whom I am related to). They have to deal with the helplessness and emotional trauma of not being able to help you if they lose you. Despite being trained for it, this is never easy. And they have less time at the scene to help other victims of the accident.

There are additional hospital costs for higher levels of care and for longer periods afterwards. My taxes pay for that, and the hospital staff are busy spending more time with you and less with other people who also need the help.

> My children wear a belt at ALL times because i'm a responsible person :p

Go that extra mile and wear the seatbelt yourself also. :-)

Cheers,
Jason.

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i'm guessing here but i'd say puter is 35 and over, i'm 34 and i also grew up on my knees looking out the rear window of whatever car dad had at the time, even sleeping in the back of several station wagons (rear window down 1") with a sibling on the way home from somewhere late at night. but that would have been in the early seventies, and i lived in country victoria then. my mum in around 1979/80 would put my baby brother on a sheepskin in the front passenger's footwell (one of the most dangerous spots in the car) and then drive to the shops!!!

of course things are different these days!

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While they were making HR's, Mum was making me :)

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I take it your Father wasn't wearing a seat belt! :-)
Regards.
Jack.

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I'm right 98% of the time. Who cares about the other 3%.

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LOL! Seat belt? I've never heard one being called that before :-)
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HR's, eh? FC's for me!

Cheers...Dave
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this reminds me of a family trip we took to newcastle(700kms away), i was all of 4 years old my brother 5, we had one of those tiny datsun utility's with a canvas cover on the back. The trip was done at night time, my father and mother in the front, and my brother and me lying on a matress in the tray, armed with a torch and a few comics. Don't no how we slept most of the way but it worked and unfortunatley for my wife, who has to wake up to me every morning, i'm still here to tell the story.

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It's like this....No-one wants to be responsible for injuring or killing someone just because that car never came out with seat belts.
Come on people. Who gives about losing points?! Put the belts in the car and be done with it.
I wouldn't sit in a car that didn't have belts. I saw an add on TV yesterday where a girl went to the shop to get a video. 'Only a short trip'. (I know it is an add but,...) She had an accident and ended up in a chair from no seat belt. All too real, some are lucky, but not all.
In my opinion, 'should I worry/bother about puting seat belts in...', is a question that shouldn't need to be asked. You wouldn't put your kids in the car without a belt, so why should you let your mates etc sit there with no belt!?

'Safety first' hey!
Thanks
Ron.

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>oldholden e-mail here!!

I HATE it when TV shows destroy the old classics........ The money they waste on destroying them, they could send the bloody things to me. I'd be more than happy to have them!

Have just today been sorting this out ejs werent fitted with sealtbelts asked cops old sarge told me that the law says if no belts children cant ride and no passengers can travell in front of vechicle until back saets are full Of course i laughed and stated the obvious that i wasnt sure how i was going to drive if i was sitting in back seat spoke to main traffic branch in queensland and law says that no seat belts are nessesary for kids on further investigation found that to get sealtbelt fitted in qld one must take it to a certified fitter who will give certificate of modification

Cheers Ishjana

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Hi, I'm on this site trying to get information about fitting rear seat belts to older cars. My 63 Buick Riviera has factory anchor points for lap belts only, but to pass Regency Park Inspection (South Australia ) I had to remove the US made belts and stuff the rear ones behind the seat.

My partner did not feel 100% comfortable with a lap belt so we are fitting retractable lap sash to the front and fixed point lap sash in the rear. It is only a four seater so no need to worry about a centre belt.

Some interesting views on this site, but I agree that having belts in all positions feels right as all our modern stuff has them. Seat Belt Solutions in WA made mine to Australian Design rules and with the small chrome GM buckle that looks correct for that era.

AttachmentSize
Image icon Snowflake our 1963 Buick Riviera41.02 KB
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